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  • So...

    I have been in Information Technology, since it was called Data Processing. I am not aware of anything I have ever done, then, or now that has ever put an individual out of work. This would include several Mainframe to Midrange conversions. In each case, the mainframe staff was retrained to take advantage of the new systems. On the other side of the coin, I have designed and implemented systems that created employment opportunities for areas other than IT. And quite frankly, I feel damn good about it. Dave

  • #2
    So...

    Yes. I think about it for a few minutes, then move on. Let's remember that the main goal of business is to cut cost for a healthy stock price and yearly bonus. Each manager’s career depends on it. And the easiest way to do that these days is to let people go. I would hope that the people in jobs being eliminated would be assigned to more challenging possitions, but I'm sure this is not always the case. The sooner we as IT professionals accept the fact that business is just that (A profit generating machine) the sooner we can accept outsourcing and layoffs. I’ve come to accept this. Thanks

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    • #3
      So...

      David, it seems you're looking at it from strictly an IT point of view. Haven't there been any jobs such as AP/AR clerks, spreadsheet jockeys, or other 'administrative' positions whose jobs your software has eliminated? That's the people I was talking about.

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      • #4
        So...

        I based my statement on an enterprise basis. I go back to the days when the system I would implement would be an entity's first automated system. This invariably created more work, than it eliminated. People's jobs would shift, and there would always be more hires. This eminated from a greater dissemination of information than ever before was possible. As people discovered that information about the business could be garnered more often, and in more ways, the requests for that information grew exponentialy. There then had to be more clerical, administrative, and supervisory staff to handle the inflow of this information. Dave

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        • #5
          So...

          B_Sing asked: "Did any of you ever create systems that put people out of work? " I can honestly say that in 29 years of I.T. management I haven't worked on any projects that reduced the number of company employees. What I've always strived for are projects that let the company grow, sometimes grow at a great rate, without adding people. OTOH, I've worked for companies that have gone through big layoffs during sluggish economic times. 1991 was one that hit hard. One time 1/3 of the company was let go. Often, when the economy picked up, the company grew even larger never having as many people as before the layoff. That tells me that one of two things occurred. Either we had too many people before the layoffs or we suddenly became more efficient. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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          • #6
            So...

            B_sing, I get the feeling that you are trying to compare apples to oranges. The whole purpose of IT professionals it to make things easier for the current staff at the company we work for. As I see it you want to make us all feel guilty for something that we either didn't do or had (have) not control over. I've been in IT for over 23 years. I've worked in almost every type of business and I can honestly say not I program or project I have ever worked on reduced labor. It did reduce labor costs because the individual(s) were able to do their jobs more efficiently and therefore reduced the need for overtime and delays getting there jobs done on time. If a company lays people of it is for other reasons than IT wrote a process that eliminated the need for the job. The only case I know of that computers replace humans is in the manufacturing lines. I personally didn't write any of the software for those and neither did 95% of the programmers out there. It is apparent to me that like us you are trying to fight for your job. I would pose a question to you: How does it make you feel that you are taking jobs away from people that have had them for years, having families loose their income (homes, cars, etc.)? Not the lavish extras that a small percentage of people can afford but the normal comman working person that lives almost paycheck to paycheck. How does it make you feel that you may be making some family homeless because they can't work (after working for 15 years)? It is YOUR turn to answer the questions.

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            • #7
              So...

              Glen, Thanks for responding. I'm not trying to make anyone feel guilty. I'm just pointing out that technology progresses and things change all the time. Some people are clamoring for government protection from change, and it struck me as somewhat hypocritical because they, as technology professionals, have changed other people's lives in a similar fashion. For example, at my local grocery store and Home Depot, they have automated checkout stands where one clerk monitors 4 stations. Technology has allowed one person to do what four used to. Whether or not those people are actually laid off makes no difference - those jobs are gone because there is a cheaper (aka more efficient) way to get the same amount of work done. Don't you find it somewhat ironic?
              It is apparent to me that like us you are trying to fight for your job.
              I am, and I always will, and that's precisely my point. Everyone must. There are no guarantees, and you (figuratively speaking) can't rest on your laurels or expect goverment to protect you when there's a whole world of competition out there. And since that's the way this world works, I don't feel too bad about it, because there's no time to. If I spent all my time feeling bad, someone else would take my job. I may vote to ensure that there's a safety net for people forced to make a transition, but I won't vote to try to stop generally positive things that technology enables. BTW, please don't get the idea that I'm taking someone's job away, because I'm certainly not. I believe that goverment intervention would do that, and that's the point I'm trying to make.

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              • #8
                So...

                I understand what you are saying but since I answered your questions please answer mine. They were as simple as your question was.

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                • #9
                  So...

                  I find it ironic that I am paying my government money (taxes) so they can then outsource my IT programming job. The government set up the H-1B and L-1 visas. Those visas need to be eliminated to level the playing field. If you've got talent, you get the job. Companies that are outsourcing overseas and only focusing on the cost to build software. The cost to own software is much greater if the software is buggy. I've worked with Indians over the years and could break most of their programs in a few minutes, even seconds. My government is supposed to represent me, not abandon me. What are my skills? Sales order entry, manufacturing, inventory management, purchase order management, work order management, RPG, ILE, CL, SQL, stored procedures, Java, JDBC, Javascript, CSS, DHTML, XML, COBOL, record locking management, program performance, program source readability, cursor sensitive screen help text, good written technical documentation, etc. But I may lose my job because the perception is that someone overseas can do the same quality work for less money. Baloney. Companies need to consider cost of ownership instead of cost of acquisition. Chris

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                  • #10
                    So...

                    Sorry, thought I did. One by one...
                    How does it make you feel that you are taking jobs away from people that have had them for years, having families loose their income (homes, cars, etc.)?
                    I'm not doing that, so I don't have a feeling about it. But one thing's for sure - there are no guarantees, so people should plan accordingly. I do feel sorry for people who don't realize this before it's too late, and I commend those who take it upon themselves to remedy the situation.
                    How does it make you feel that you may be making some family homeless because they can't work (after working for 15 years)?
                    Again, I'm not doing that, so I can't answer the question directly. But one way I feel about the question is perplexed by the phrase "can't work". I wonder why "can't"? And I would wonder why someone would be homeless after working for 15 years. See Chuck's 'financial plan' discussion for more on that. ;-)

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                    • #11
                      So...

                      If a company decides to outsource their programming what am I supposed to be doing to stop that? If there are only 2 companies in my area that have IT shops and one outsources and the other isn't hiring then I'm out of a job and now either have to relocate my entire family to another area or change careers and hope I can still pay my bills. You keep saying that we need to learn a new skill set and "remedy the situation". You are then saying that we all should figure we are going to be replaced by some programmer overseas so we need to change careers or start preparing to change careers. That is just stupid thinking. Yes there are no guarentees when it comes to work. But if you live in a country you would expect that the companies in your area would support the local economics by hiring local people. I myself have been relocated several times in my career by companies just to be laid off after 1.5 yrs or more. How am I supposed to protect myself against a company that decides that they are going to outsource? It isn't like they are going to announce this in advance. No they would loose everybody before and there would be no transition of information and some critical projects wouldn't get done when needed. You've stated that you are one of the people that companies outsource too. There for you ARE taking jobs away from people that may have been working for a company for 10-15 yrs or more. There skill set had nothing to do with them being laid off. But you have no guilt that you put someone out of work because you live where it cost less and think you can do the job for less. I'm not going to say whether you personally can do the job better or worse than the person you replace but in general the work coming from India is substandard. It may meet India standards but not the standards we have spent years creating. Our standards seem to be a lot hire than yours. Think about this. What if the company you work for all of a sudden told you that you are no longer needed because they have decided to outsource your job to another country? Wouldn't you be upset? Now keep in mind I didn't say you were not still qualified to do the job (meaning you still are) it is that you are being replaced by someone that live in a country that the cost of living is less. You are going to sit there and tell us that you would not be upset? If not, then you are not human. As to Chuck's economic scenario, did you also read Joe and my response to that? The reality is that most American's have to have both the husband and wife working full time just to make ends meet. Some of the lucky ones can get away with only one spouse working and make ends meet. And then there is that small (and I do mean small) percentage that can efford to put money away for a rainy day. I don't know may that can unless they are Managers, CIO, Consultants (with a good client base), CFOs, etc. Reality is this, Americans are not the rich or well off as people in other countries think we are. We are just like any other person on this planet trying to make a living just to get by. The more work that goes away from us the more it hits our economy. The higher the unemployement rate goes up. And so on. It is simple economics. I've said this before, and you have made several statements backing this up, you have told us that we need to find new careers (you use skill sets) because you are going to take our jobs (when I refer to you I mean those of you on the outsourcing end). Why don't you get a "new skill set". By the way, I've been programming for 23 yrs in Cobol & RPG (II, II, IV, ILE), worked with packages like JD Edwards, Pansophic, Computer Associates, Showcase, etc. I've been an MIS Director, Project Manager, Systems Analyst, Analyst/Programmer, & Database Admin. I've installed operating systems and maintained them. Worked on both Mainframes and midrange (last 20 years on midrange). What skills do I not possess that will keep me from being replaced by outsourcing?

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                      • #12
                        So...

                        Hi Glen, I appreciate what your saying. I think you've got me mistaken for someone else. I'm right here where I've always been, in sunny Southern California. To summarize, I think that if the game changes and you don't like it, change playing fields. We've (collectively, for Mr. A ;-)) gone round and round on this on this site. I'm not advocating a new completely career if that's not necessary, but options need to remain open. And as Don Denoncourt mentioned, we have the tremendous advantage of being local. So start there, and see where it takes you. For example, how you could use the products that the outsourcing companies are making to make money for yourself? Perhaps if they're crummy, make money fixing them. Or, if they're good, make money selling/installing them. Or if you can compete head to head on value for a company, go for it, and more power to you!
                        If a company decides to outsource their programming what am I supposed to be doing to stop that?
                        Get active - write newspaper articles, form protest groups, join the Chamber of Commerce and lobby, or whatever. Make a public stink. Perhaps there's not much one can do, but of course one should do everything one can. But the thing I'm against in general is government intervention in markets. No one really knows (or at least agrees on) how this globalism thing will work out, least of all politicians. If they get involved, they'll likely screw it up for everyone.
                        How am I supposed to protect myself against a company that decides that they are going to outsource?
                        By making money on something that can't easily be outsourced, or by being better than those to whom things are outsourced. Value wins, so create value. Speaking of creating value, I'm not creating any for my company right now, so I gotta go. ;-)

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                        • #13
                          So...

                          Glen said: "If there are only 2 companies in my area that have IT shops and one outsources and the other isn't hiring then I'm out of a job and now either have to relocate my entire family to another area or change careers and hope I can still pay my bills." I'd say that being an I.T. professional in an area as limited as you chose was very risky business. Generally, with high risks there are high payoffs. I'm assuming that the area is extremely desirable for you and that's the reward for the high risk? Managing a career is a matter of managing risks. Surely you must have known the risks when you took the job or entered the profession. Why is it surprising, then, when the gamble didn't pay off? chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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                          • #14
                            So...

                            Chris, you wrote : "I've worked with Indians over the years and could break most of their programs in a few minutes, even seconds." Too bad, you got the bad lot(of Indian programmers) to work with !!

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                            • #15
                              So...

                              Chuck, Perhaps Glen could move his family to your area of the country. What's a modest 3 bedroom house cost there in 2004? Or just give me your zip code and I can find out myself. Thanks. Chris PS: I'm 41.

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