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I.T. or outsourcing, which is the greater evil?

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  • I.T. or outsourcing, which is the greater evil?

    Actually from my view, increases in Technology leave money in the host country (realized in savings, that can create other jobs), where outsourcing send the money elsewhere, leaving the host country holding the ...

  • #2
    I.T. or outsourcing, which is the greater evil?

    ctibodoe said: "Actually from my view, increases in Technology leave money in the host country" Really? Are you making the assumption that when you purchase SAP, or Siebel, or Sony, or other technology products that the money stays in the U.S.? An assumption that may be incorrect. Look inside any piece of hardware. Most of the pieces are non-US related. Now, with outsourcing, you can look inside the software and see a foreigner's fingerprints all over it. So, what part of this technology leaves the money in the U.S.? chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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    • #3
      I.T. or outsourcing, which is the greater evil?

      I am not afraid of making assumptions, I do this very thing everyday, and sometimes I'm right, and it makes me money. I did not equate purchasing SAP to an increase in technology. I equated an increase in technology to a developer knocking off a few jobs and leaving the boss with more money to spend somewhere else. Or a microsoft shop moving to an AS/400 and laying off the server farm workers. I would equate a shop with developers and a home grown application buying SAP to outsourcing the application. But then I am here to learn.

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      • #4
        I.T. or outsourcing, which is the greater evil?

        I forgot to say that those developers made that increase in technology with ILE.

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        • #5
          I.T. or outsourcing, which is the greater evil?

          CDR9003 said: "Turning over the IT department is usually a bad idea because of the tight coupling between IT and the management and operations of all other departments. You need direct control and the same face day after day." Yet General Motors did this many years ago and outsourced all of I.T. to Ross Perot. Granted, EDS is in Texas, not a foreign country, but most of think of Texas as a foreign country anyway! ;-) CDR9003 said: "When all aspects of IT become as standarized as payroll, then outsourcing IT will be common. This will not be in our lifetimes." If you listen to our own Justice Department there are only 3 software packages in the entire world! SAP, Oracle and PeopleSoft. Apparently the world of IT has alredy standarized. CDR9003 said: "With the economy improving, expect to see a lot of systems being replaced by packages that do not require a staff of programmers to maintain. The labor savings from not keeping programmers around will help pay for it." Yeah, and we are our own worst enemy here. During the dotcom boom we, programmers, had corporate America over a barrell and all demanded huge salaries. Now, corporate America, known for long memories, will do everything in their power to keep from being under our thumbs again. CDR9003 said: "If IBM ever wakes up, the next wave after that will involve the deskilling of the programmer's job via new development tools." I think IBM is wide awake. Most of their revenue is now obtained from services, not hardware or software. In fact, locally, the Nestle' corporation just outsourced their entire IT department to IBM IT services, which is located in Brazil. Hundreds of people in the local Nestle' IT group will be out of work in October if they choose not to take a big pay cut and move to Brazil. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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          • #6
            I.T. or outsourcing, which is the greater evil?

            CDR9003 wrote: You are probably right about IBM being wide awake. If the AS/400 were made too easy to program so that the results look modern, they would not be able to hire out teams of consultants. I am just naive enough to think they really want to sell high quality, user oriented developer tools. Every once in a while, and a sentence like this is one of those times, I am reminded that the roots of the i5, iseries, AS/400, and S/38 were grounded in the "Future Systems Group" which was originally established by IBM to spin off and form its own company. In other words, it was never the original intention of IBM to manage such a radical hardware architecture, and OS. IMO, IBM Armonk never fully understood what took place at IBM Rochester, and to this day there is still that lack of understanding. Many individuals at IBM never quite got the message that midrange customers really liked what they have. Dave

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            • #7
              I.T. or outsourcing, which is the greater evil?

              CDR9003 said: "If the AS/400 were made too easy to program so that the results look modern, they would not be able to hire out teams of consultants." I don't know if that's what is at the bottom of it. Rochestor has specific constraints applied to them because they're part of IBM. The restraints are: - Websphere is king. Push it hard. Why do you think the hardware just got so cheap? Because Websphere is king and it's a HOG, needs lots of CPWs. - Java is the best. Anything else is second. - Don't be so good as to diminish the value of the other divisions within IBM. Given the above constraints they do a pretty good job. But, as most of us have learned by reading "Good to Great", Good is the enemy of Great. The i5 and the Rochestor group will never be Great simply because they are purposely handcuffed by corporate IBM. CDR9003 said: "I am just naive enough to think they really want to sell high quality, user oriented developer tools. " IBM has always been like a wheat field ever leaning in the direction of the wind. Currently, the wind is blowing in the direction of services and IBM is pushing that to the peril of all else. Yes I, like you, wish IBM were a strong steel building holding firm with best of breed products, but that's never been their strong point. And I expect it never will. That's why I don't take the lemming route of Websphere and Java. Next year the wind may be blowing in a different direction. My problem is that I've been around IBM too long and have seen too little direction. Say what you will about Microsoft but one thing you can't argue with is their resolve. You KNOW where they are headed. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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              • #8
                I.T. or outsourcing, which is the greater evil?

                Say what you will about Microsoft but one thing you can't argue with is their resolve. You KNOW where they are headed. Actually I dont...care to share your insights ?

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                • #9
                  I.T. or outsourcing, which is the greater evil?

                  Dave asked about Microsoft's direction: "Actually I dont...care to share your insights ?" If I invest in Windows, Office, Exchange, etc, I know that Windows, Office, Exchange will be products I can use for a long time. OTOH, If you've been an IBM customer for a long time you might have invested in TopView, OS/2, S/38 BASIC and now Java and Linux. Where will IBM take us tomorrow? I don't know but I bet the "answer's a blowin' in the wind." chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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                  • #10
                    I.T. or outsourcing, which is the greater evil?

                    Dave: Don't you know what IBM REALLY stands for? I've Been Mislead !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Chuck: Don't forget these MISSION CRITICAL IBM development tools: UIM, Net.DATA, VARPG...... Boy, how I've been burned by those "things". At least when Microsoft devlivers a new version, the publishing industry must destroy another forest due to the "new" version manuals that have to be printed. I wonder when Al Gore and the tree huggers will camp out in Redmond? Maybe when the contribution $'s to the DNC dry up?!?!?!?!

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                    • #11
                      I.T. or outsourcing, which is the greater evil?

                      Hold on a moment here. With the exception of OS/2, IBM has never provided me a technology that didn't work for a good, long time. Most of the things you mentioned, such as UIM and Net.DATA, are not technologies but programming gadgets of one type or another. Most of them were deswigned to make programming "easier". In most cases, they were simply another dialect to do the same thing, designed for people who didn't have the time or inclination to actually learn the underlying technology. Some of us avoided those snares because - well, because they were bad ideas, frankly. UIM was never a very smart language, Net.DATA was obviously just another scripting syntax... the list goes on. Every time you try to use one of IBM's "shortcuts", it invariably leads to more work. If, on the other hand, you take the time to identify the real technologies (Java, HTML, CSS, RPG, DB2) and learn how to use them without shackling yourself to a dead-end technology "shortcut", then you always end up in the forefront. My current toolbox includes ILE RPG, ILE CL, native DB2 and SQL on the server, Java and JSP Model II in the middle tier, and HTML and CSS on the client. It's unbeatable, and NONE of those technologies is going away anytime soon. I use WebSphere as a matter of convenience, I use REXX on the host where it makes my life easier, but I'm wedded to neither technology. I can just as easily replace WebSphere with any J2EE servlet container, and anything I can do in REXX I can do (with some effort) in RPG and/or CL. Thus, I don't care when one of IBM's hot code generation doodads goes out of style (will WebFacing be tomorrow's Host Publisher?). I'm insulated from IBM's gadget whims because I know how the actual code works, and I don't rely on somebody else's idea of a shortcut. Joe

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                      • #12
                        I.T. or outsourcing, which is the greater evil?

                        If I invest in Windows, Office, Exchange, etc, I know that Windows, Office, Exchange will be products I can use for a long time. You may want to go back in history and look at some of Microsoft's not so successful attempts (remember Windows DNA, COM, COM+,...) A few nieve people jumped into Microsoft J++. Like all manufacurers Microsoft is continuously "inventing" new products to sell to its customers. Yes you will be able to use these for a price !!! Do you really see a future in Exchange Servers ? Everyone I know has or is migrating to Linux based mail servers. Cheaper, faster and more reliable. You may care to read http://www.manageability.org/managea...ki/FutureProof for some more details on how "future proof" are people's decisions in Microsoft technologies.

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                        • #13
                          I.T. or outsourcing, which is the greater evil?

                          dave400 said: "Everyone I know has or is migrating to Linux based mail servers. Cheaper, faster and more reliable." You sound like a teenage girl who overuses the phrase, "but dad, everyone's doing it." You know me. My company has zero Linux machines. So much for "everyone" you know! chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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                          • #14
                            I.T. or outsourcing, which is the greater evil?

                            Chuck: You sound like a teenage girl who overuses the phrase, "but dad, everyone's doing it." ---------- Chuck, is this sort of disrespect necessary? As to Dave's comment, while not every single shop I know is converting to Linux, not every shop I know uses computers, either. Some people probably still used lead-based paint and asbestos, despite the laws; you'll find that mentality in every industry. SO you don't worry about the isolated incidents, but instead watch the trends. I guarantee the percentage of people using Linux mail servers is rising as compared to Microsoft Exchange, which are falling. The same is true in the web serving arena. In just about every area where cheap commodity servers suffice, Linux is gaining market share from Windows. At least, that's my personal observation. The HTTP numbers are backed up by Netcraft; I'm sure a similar survey of email servers would do the same. One I found with an admittedly smal sample size listed Sendmail as 38% of the servers responding, while Exchange was 2.35% and falling. Joe

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                            • #15
                              I.T. or outsourcing, which is the greater evil?

                              You sound like a teenage girl who overuses the phrase, "but dad, everyone's doing it." I presume you were trying to be funny rather than rude ? You know me. My company has zero Linux machines. So much for "everyone" you know! Actually I would not say I know you. But let me be more explicit for you ! Each site I have been at over the last 18 months has migrated or started migration to Linux based email servers. Everything I have read shows it to be a lower cost option than Exchange and there are a number of sites that have reported their servers to be more reliable. But different sites have different factors. My question is have you performed a cost benefit analysis and made an informed decision to stay with Exchange. If so where did you see Exchange having a cost advantage and a reliability advantge. Are there any advanced features of exchange that has locked you in from migration ?

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