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  • Question about RPG programmers

    Eugene asked: Will IBM come out with a migration tool that will take the RPG applications and convert them to VB, C# to run on .NET platforms? IMO, I don't think so, but California Software Products did something similar years ago. Dave

  • #2
    Question about RPG programmers

    and ASNA Visual RPG (or whatever they're calling it now) takes it to as close to .NET as you're going to be able to salvage from existing RPG code. But I think it's quite ironic to talk of an interest in what the RPG code does but no interest in RPG programmers. I don't think it works that way. The interest goes away because the company goes away through closing or acquisition. I could be wrong but I doubt that much RPG code is ported to another language for technology reasons. rd

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    • #3
      Question about RPG programmers

      Eugene, I just addressed this very issue in my recent article: http://www.mcpressonline.com/mc?1@17...ae.1@.6b2a7977 There may be fewer RPG programmers right now, but that's just an artifact of supply and demand. As the number of RPG programmers goes down, the demand for RPG programmers will rise, and it's my firm belief that RPG is going to undergo a boom, if not an explosion, over the next few years. 25% growth in the iSeries and incredible extensions to the RPG language combine to make RPG a really great language to work in. As to RPG on other platforms, I see no need for it and no use for it. You can use other languages on those platforms. Leave RPG for the programming of serious business logic, on DB2/400 where it is most effective. Joe

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      • #4
        Question about RPG programmers

        Well, in my neck of the woods there are literally thousands of RPG programmers within a 25 mile radius of where I work. Some very large corporations rely very heavily upon iSeries running RPG applications. I expect the original post was just something to get a rise out of us. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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        • #5
          Question about RPG programmers

          I work for a large company using RPG on the iSeries. We are writing new apps in it for large projects. We run other platforms too, but I don't see iSeries going away soon.

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          • #6
            Question about RPG programmers

            Joe: As you know, I spent most of my first 23 years at IBM involved with RPG in some form or another, most of that on S/38, AS/400, and iSeries. And so if RPG is to disappear, I'd like that to happen long after I'm dead and buried. First, regarding the 25% growth number, I'd like to point out something that should be obvious. I don't want to diminish the great work done by the marketing folks in Rochester, but I'm sure you know that quarter to quarter revenue growth figures can vary wildly. It's the long term trends that you need to look at. I don't know what the numbers are, but you really should compare 3Q2005 with 3Q2004, 3Q2003, 3Q2002, etc. to see the real trend. But back on topic. You know I like to play devil's advocate, so I'd like to see your response to some comments made in an article called "The Future of iSeries: A Roundtable Discussion", in the October 2005 issue of iSeries News. (For some reason, I'm on their mailing list. I was about to toss the mag on the communal magazine pile, but the headline grabbed my attention.) Paul Conte: ... essentially, unless something is done to truly revitalize the primary programming language so it's easy to develop contemporary applications, using up-to-date programming practices, there just isn't going to be the continued wealth of development in RPG to support the average iSeries programmer in a 60 to 80 thousand-dollar-a-year job. Regardless of the slow improvements over the last decade, ILE RPG still lacks such elemental language constructs as user-defined data types. Carson Soule: ... my observation is that the work is ramping down much faster than a lot of people thought it would. A lot of people thought they could ride their jobs to retirement, and they may find that they're not going to make it. Earlier in the article: Carson Soule: I really think we need the new RPG, the RPG of the 21st century, which has nothing to do with the old RPG. I think there's a tremendous amount to be learned from WebSphere and Java and all the things we've done there, but they are absolutely not the solution in terms of where we need to get to. ... Comments? I think Carson's points are somewhat valid. But I think it's unfortunate that many people think that there are only two programming language options available on the iSeries. There are in fact many, including C, Perl, PHP, and Python, each with their own particular strengths. I suppose my opinion is that there doesn't really need to be a "new RPG". There just needs to be more awareness and knowledge and use of the great tools that are already available. Cheers! Hans

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            • #7
              Question about RPG programmers

              Carson's statement "I really think we need the new RPG, the RPG of the 21st century, which has nothing to do with the old RPG" is kind of odd. If IBM developed it, it wouldn't be RPG, it would be something else. To make RPG and iSeries attractive in the future is to give the machine a GUI and RPG the extensions to program it in the F-Specs. Tom.

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              • #8
                Question about RPG programmers

                Tom: GUI's run on workstations. On midrange and mainframe systems, which typically run at ~95% of machine capacity, it makes no sense for the machine to waste cycles handling the CPU intensive details of the user interface. On the other hand, workstations typically spend most of the time waiting on user input, and so they can easily handle GUI's. My point is that it's not likely that you'll see a GUI implemented directly on a machine like the iSeries, zSeries, or pSeries. Likewise, RPG is best suited to handling business logic running on an iSeries. The easiest way to implement a GUI user interface using RPG is through HTML, which is best handled by other languages better suited to it. Which simply echoes my original point. There's no need for a "new RPG". What's needed is better awareness, understanding, and use of other existing tools, many of which already run on the iSeries. This leads back to your original post. In my opinion, if you want to keep your RPG skills fresh and current, learn how to integrate RPG code with code written in other languages. But of course, this requires learning other languages, which, for some reason, seems to be something that many RPG programmers are unwilling to do. This doesn't mean learning VB or C# or .net - there are other good alternatives, like Java, C, Perl, PHP, and Python, which as I mentioned, run on iSeries. Cheers! Hans

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                • #9
                  Question about RPG programmers

                  Ah, Hans. As a naysayer, you're no Don Rima. First off, about the growth numbers, I don't care what you say, the numbers are fantastic. 25% growth is phenomenal in this economy. Can you name another unit in IBM that did as well? How about one outside of IBM? And yes, I suppose trends are important. Evidently you consider them so, so please tell us what those trends are. In the meantime, I'll be very happy with the FACT that iSeries sales spiked dramatically in the midst of a really crappy economy. Second, I'm not going to address third-hand comments from other magazines. I've publicly stated my reasons why I consider JSP Model II and an RPG back end to be the best business application development architecture available, and nothing has changed that opinion. Feel free to post my comments there and tell us what their response is. I don't like baseless opinions. My bias towards JSP/RPG has been based on years of careful scientific observation of the facts. But because I'm a big fan of yours, Hans, I will make a conjecture, just for you: RPG is poised to make the biggest comeback since the Red Sox. Joe

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                  • #10
                    Question about RPG programmers

                    It may very well be "easiest", Hans. What other OS does that as their primary interface, and do users really care how "easy" it is for you? They will buy what is easiest for them. That should be our focus, not ourselves. rd

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                    • #11
                      Question about RPG programmers

                      I've never seen any indication that a company in the US is starting new work on an AS/400. And all IBM talks about is running virtual servers of Linux and Windows on it. I don't know who the new 3,000 customers are or what they are doing, but I wish IBM well in whatever they did to our AS/400. rd

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                      • #12
                        Question about RPG programmers

                        I need to amend that. If IBM doesn't provide a GUI interface for the AS/400, in the sense that no other OS (besides IBM mainframe) is described as we are, not having a GUI interface, or described as having a web page for an interface, then yes, in their refusal to provide what users require then we will need to talk about what we will be doing next. Web page programming is part of that, sure, but the OS will have a GUI interface, and it won't be an IBM OS. If IBM screws up the AS/400 for the sake of Websphere then they will have reaped what they have sowed, and we will need to look out for number one on some other OS. I speak from both sides on this. I was recently unemployed for a year and a half which bankrupted me. On the other hand, I am now employed by an AS/400 shop company and hope to be for a number of years. However, having a desktop GUI interface provided with OS/400 will be required just as every other OS has. Quite frankly, the user interface is the hardest part of it and maybe more important to the user than response, so excellent I/O response in a weak interface won't beat a powerful GUI interface with slow response. We can have both, but it has to be a consistent, identifiable part of OS/400 for the AS/400 to survive. With IBM behaving the way they are, I really can't blame everyone for learning something that will make them employable on other OS'es and be ready to jump ship when IBM sinks it. A lot already have, and it appears by IBM's inaction to be inevitable. rd

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                        • #13
                          Question about RPG programmers

                          Ralph said: I've never seen any indication that a company in the US is starting new work on an AS/400. So, since you've never seen it, we're supposed to conclude that it didn't happen? C'mon Ralph... I feel like I'm watching John Kerry in a debate. Chris

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                          • #14
                            Question about RPG programmers

                            Hi Hans, You're quoting Carson Soule? I think you picked the wrong guy. In that same discusssion, he said that ILE (modules, service progams) was a huge step backwards in RPG. He favors the dynamic call. He dislikes binding. I guess he hasn't heard of a binding directory. And, I guess his business requirements are pretty simple, or he likes having one program with 50 parms that can invoke 10 different business rules depending on which parms are filled/unfilled, instead of using a service program with 10 exported procedure where fewer parms are specifically targeted to a given procedure. He also said that the current relational database has outlived its purpose and we need to move to something better. How? By abandong the relational database to force the industry to come up with something better. Gee, I wonder what that would do to the US GNP? So, needless to say, his comments on RPG have to be discounted. Chris

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                            • #15
                              Question about RPG programmers

                              Hi Hans, I agree that a GUI on the iSeries makes no sense from the view of efficient operations of machines. You're thinking like an engineer but I have to view the world from my client's viewpoint. I spent the last few years doing everything but iSeries work. I worked in VB, .NET, C++, HTML and javascript. Web and MS Windows stuff. Whenever I interview a prospective client, I am always asked about the iSeries. Most people don't know what it is. When they find out that it has a text-based, non-GUI interface, they laugh about the "quaintness" of it. "It sound like DOS" is a common refrain. I tell them about its strong qualities and I start sounding like someone trying to get the ugly stepsister a date :}. Most people don't care about anything but price and that it runs windows. I have to say that I work mainly with small and medium businesses. If the iSeries had a GUI available, it may be an easier sell to the non-iSeries crowd. It would make the machine look up-to-date instead of "so 20th century" as my teenage daughter likes to say. 99% of what makes Microsoft so successful is marketing and image. Apple is selling iPods because of it's distinctive look and hip quotient. There are many choices in the marketplace and image is important. The iSeries looks old and often perception is reality. I am now working at two iSeries accounts. At one, their main concern is getting off of it ASAP. They're replacing their custom code with packaged software running on Windows servers. The other has had budget cuts and replaced their iSeries staff with me. They will eventually move off their iSeries. When they log on to the iSeries with their workstations, they don't want to see green screens. So, the iSeries becomes simply a file server. I program GUI or web applications that process the iSeries data. Customers like it better than green screens. But, then the bean counters look at the cost of an iSeries file server with an intel server and the iSeries can't compete. Of course, since the company has already decided on Intel servers they look for ways to justify the decision. Still working in the trenches. Tom.

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