Unconfigured Ad Widget

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Has IBM relinquished the B2C marketplace to the competition?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Has IBM relinquished the B2C marketplace to the competition?

    Frank Whittemore asked: What software languages, tools and/or middleware were they promoting for the development of the web sites? It depends. At one tech conference I saw separate, but surprisingly similar demos for DOMINO; JAVA; CGI; and WEBSHPERE. I finally tracked one guy down who told me that WEBSPHERE was more appropriate for shops over 100 people. IMO, IBM does not have a one product policy. Dave

    Comment


    • #32
      Has IBM relinquished the B2C marketplace to the competition?

      Why does IBM push B2B use of the iseries and by comparison ignore the B2C use? Here's what IBM is pushing now. It's in the latest IGNITe/400 Newsletter - Issue 2, hot off the presses: =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ***ARTICLE IBM's Phil Coultard on iSeries Web Application Architecture The second of Phil's articles describes what a modern application might look like, and how it would compare to a traditional iSeries application. It focuses on the architecture and technology of iSeries applications with a Web browser user interface. It's the preferred type of application that IBM would like you to concentrate on, and they bet this is also what your boss and your end users are most interested in. But is it? MORE... http://www.ignite400.org/news/news2001030901.htm =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

      Comment


      • #33
        Has IBM relinquished the B2C marketplace to the competition?

        And.... You missed my point. You really really missed my point if you think that SUBWAY makes a superior sandwich. I don't think I did. You say the AS/400 will lose because it's going to get outmarketed, like Betamax. I'm saying it's good enough to survive, like Macintosh. And as long as it survives, I will have a job. And I LIKE Subway sandwiches, and how the shops work. They're fast, efficient and friendly. But your point is taken... nothing beats a grinder from a Mom and Pop shop. >smile<

        Comment


        • #34
          Has IBM relinquished the B2C marketplace to the competition?

          "I finally tracked one guy down who told me that WEBSPHERE was more appropriate for shops over 100 people." ----------------------------------- You've got to be kidding! Are you telling me the IBMer was saying that WEBSPHERE is only appropriate for very large I.T. shops of over 100 people? Am I misinterpreting something here?

          Comment


          • #35
            Has IBM relinquished the B2C marketplace to the competition?

            Frank, you've got to consider that these IBM marketing people don't know as much as you and are only following orders as to what message to deliver. They don't have enough passion or technical knowledge to waste your time thinking about what page they're singing from, because in the end that's all they're doing. They haven't given nearly the thought or concern to this that you alone have expressed in this forum yourself. The poor soul was trying to tiptoe among the landmines that make up the Domino and Websphere marketplace. You might have noticed that before IBM bet all their marbles on Websphere, they touted the scalability of Domino, and on the AS/400 to boot. That no longer fits with their "Websphere will conquer the world" message. The official partyline is that Websphere scales, Domino is for workflow. Of course they overlap in that Domino is an HTTP web server also, but IBM really would like to sell both on all systems. Also, any informed examination of this area would find a more important contrast between Websphere Standard and Websphere Advanced than Websphere and Domino. There are increasingly numerous news stories on conflicts in the direction of IBM Webspere and Lotus Domino, especially as pertains to the new Raven knowledge management product, as I have posted here before. The IBM marketing guy got caught pushing Websphere scalable solution, hence the > 100 statement. He really just didn't know what he was talking about, but should we be surprised? Imagine if you made a living trying to explain IBM product stategies to customers. And then think about salespeople in general, and what interesting intersection of human qualities make up this wondrous category, the IBM marketing rep.... Ralph

            Comment


            • #36
              Has IBM relinquished the B2C marketplace to the competition?

              Susan - Thanks for the reference to that article. I think. Actually, I haven't fully recovered from reading it yet. Here's a mind boggling quote - "We will have more to say on all these efforts in future articles. But another thing to keep in mind is that having many pieces in even a simple application has another big advantage for you. Not every person has to know how to create every piece. The new generation of programming will involve more than just one person who does it all. It will have one set of people skilled at designing Web sites. There may be another set of people skilled at Java, and another set skilled at writing business logic. Very possibly, yet another set of people skilled at configuring and administrating application servers and HTTP servers. Much like Henry Ford did with the assembly line. Prior to Henry a single person assembled an entire car. Can you imagine that today? I don't think the Unions would like it! In the new world, optimized roles will become more popular. Look for our tools to build on that theme." -------------------------------------------------------------------- Now for why my mind is boggled. Did you guys pick up on this? Think of the one programmer shop. Now instead of needing one programmer, they'll need four! O.K. guys and gals - what's your take on this? P.S. Is it time to retire yet?

              Comment


              • #37
                Has IBM relinquished the B2C marketplace to the competition?

                I fully agree with the Model/View/Controller methodology that IBM is adapting its tools to, while at the same time recognizing that software development is more challenging now than it ever has been.

                As far as the one-programmer shop is concerned, maybe he or she will be evaluating and extending purchased applications instead of building from scratch.  Personally, I don't like it.  In fact, I hate it.  And my mission is to counter-balance it! What I mean is that I support initiatives that empower the individual programmer and enhance the viability of the small business or department that he/she works for. Anybody else out there feel the same?

                Nathan.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Has IBM relinquished the B2C marketplace to the competition?

                  Now for why my mind is boggled. Did you guys pick up on this? Think of the one programmer shop. Now instead of needing one programmer, they'll need four! O.K. guys and gals - what's your take on this? P.S. Is it time to retire yet? Not even close, Frank. What's going to happen is that there will be a new generation of simple, easy to use development tools that will provide basic functions. Let's look at what we have today: If you want a screen, you use DDS to create a display file. Now, you could create your panels using user-defined data streams, but you don't do that. Why not? You have lots more function and control with UDDS. But you're willing to gain ease-of-use for loss of, for lack of a better word, "bells and whistles". Now, there are people who use UDDS today. But most don't. They use DDS because it provides enough function, with a much smaller learning curve. Now, it's not a zero learning curve... how long did it take you to learn subfiles? And I don't know about you, but I'm still learning things about DDS as both it and I mature. Now, there are things that even DDS can do that I don't do. Heck, I probably only use about 20-30% of the capabilities of DDS. Maybe 50% on a good day. I know I don't push the threshhold on printer file DDS at all. And a lot of what I learned I simply copied from someone else's code. As an example, my code always uses the same indicator for SFLCLR and SFLDSPCTL (with the sign reversed), just like I learned back in my S/38 days. And that's nearly always indicator 50. I used that original code for six months or so before I fully understood it. It took me a long time to remember that I always had to create that stupid SFLRRN field in my program every time. I got more 7030 field not found errors because of that stupid field... After a while, I tweaked that original code until it felt good to me. I threw in a few of my own twists, like standard record names and using a MOVEA to initialize my indicators. And in so doing, I learned quite a bit about subfiles. I learned about READC and SFLNXTCHG and hidden fields. I learned about the HELP key and popup windows. And eventually, I became very comfortable with that code. Now, whenever I need to create a new subfile program, I pretty much clone an existing program. I've got a subfile load subroutine, and while the database files and fields may change, that load subroutine stays pretty much the same. I'd guess you do much the same. So what if someone showed you a simple technique that allowed you to, say, populate a couple of files and define a couple of data structures, and it would create serviceable web pages for you? Sure, you could go in and mess with the code, but you wouldn't have to. At first . You'd use the code as a base to create simple, serviceable programs. And then, as you started needing more features, you'd learn how the pieces of the new language worked (remember, you did it with DDS - because, make no mistake, DDS is a complete and powerful language in its own right). You'd start tweaking until you had your own "base" programs to clone from. So what's stopping you from doing that with the web-based stuff? Well, much of it is the fact that there are so many different things to learn. It takes at least one new language and a couple of brand new technologies to put up even basic web programs. And unlike RPG, you don't have any old programs to clone from. So what is needed is a set of self-contained, simple programs that perform basic functions. Edit a file, update a file. Show a list of records. Someone who understands almost nothing of the technology needs to be able to make some changes and see them work. Preferably, a simple code generator would be available to generate base code for you to tweak (as opposed to a set of closed APIs that you have to take on faith). Somebody will build something like this. You'll be able to identify a file and it will generate a simple client/server application for that file. This will give you all the pieces you need to see how the technology works. Once that's done, I think you'll find yourself starting up that learning curve. Joe

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Has IBM relinquished the B2C marketplace to the competition?

                    MS and IBM are the best examples for the phrase, Triumph of MARKETING over technology! Elan

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Has IBM relinquished the B2C marketplace to the competition?

                      In the new world, optimized roles will become more popular. Look for our tools to build on that theme.

                      I interpret "optimized roles" as "dividing the project between more than one specialist".  While it's hard to argue against the economics of this, for some reason, it chafes at me.  I want it to be as easy to build a web application as it is to build a 5250 application.  The PDM options are about as complex as I want to go.

                      The admission above, is a major retrenchment for me.  From 1993-1999, I was into Windows development, big time.  My toolset varied, but over time it included the enterprise edition of Visual Studio, Delphi, Visual Cafe, JBuilder, Visual Age for Java, and others.  It was exhausting, trying to keep up with the complexity.  I finally retreated back to OS/400, which for me was a safe harbor.

                      Although Windows tools are fascinating, nothing in my career as a Windows developer compared to the productivity that I had experienced as an RPG programmer.  I'm happy to be back.  But I tend to agree that the direction that IBM is headed with its web tools leaves the one-man shop behind.  It motivates me to do something about it.

                      For me personally, the idea of using PDM to develop web applications is becoming close to reality.  Except, instead of using SDA, I've had to learn to use an HTML editor.  I hope to be able to share more as I refine the technique.

                      Nathan.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Has IBM relinquished the B2C marketplace to the competition?

                        My Take? People like to tell others how to do things, period. Ask them to do it, they run away (well, not all of them). All of these arguments are old hat (by todays time measuring methods). And, while they do make sense, they only apply to a small percentage of the folks in the trenches out there. The one person shop is still just as important as it was yesterday and the days before. The key here is to apply these opinions to your own personal habitat and working environment. If you see the possibility for these ideas making a worthwhile difference, great. If you have to ask "how the heck will our shop do that?" then you're not ready for it yet. In the end, do what's best for you and your shop. If that means writing "monolithic" programs, so be it. If that means mixing the two environements, even better. Our business software is by no means as simple as the small examples in articles are. Not be a looooooooongshot. In theory, you can accomplish anything with these techniques. In reality, the timeline it too short in our every changing environment. But, it does help to learn a little about each new technique, because nothing is entirely new. They just take previous ideas a step further. The move from ILE to OO is a perfect example. In 2 years there will be something better than OO, but OO will be a part of that solution. As always, do what you can, and don't be intimidated. You know your shop and your job better than any writer or "technology specialist." These technologies aren't going away and your business will not fail if you don't use them. Always ask "What does insert company, group or person here have to gain from me and my shop moving to this particular technology." ALWAYS ask that. Brad

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Has IBM relinquished the B2C marketplace to the competition?

                          The one-programmer shop is not a good idea anyway. If something happens to the programmer, a lot of knowledge that's not written down anywhere gets lost. ("Documentation? I don't have time to write documentation!") But to address the article, I think Phil Coulthard is right, that people could very well specialize in the different parts of an information system. One person generates business logic & another does webpage design. However, I think that applies more to larger shops, where people are designing software. There will still be small shops that don't need a lot of IS people. They'll use a package, which the vendor will keep updated. IS (IT, DP, whatever you want to call it) staff will concentrate more on administrative and people tasks, like training, trouble-shooting, and implementing new software. The days when a person can code RPG for a living are numbered, but that doesn't mean there won't be jobs for us, just that we'll have to do other things. That suits me. I'm tired of writing code anyway.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Has IBM relinquished the B2C marketplace to the competition?

                            The one-programmer shop is not a good idea anyway. If something happens to the programmer, a lot of knowledge that's not written down anywhere gets lost. ("Documentation? I don't have time to write documentation!") ... The days when a person can code RPG for a living are numbered, but that doesn't mean there won't be jobs for us, just that we'll have to do other things. That suits me. I'm tired of writing code anyway. Ok, Ted.  How about one programmer, and one documenter.  I'll take the programming job, you take the other. 

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Has IBM relinquished the B2C marketplace to the competition?

                              Ted Hold wrote: The one-programmer shop is not a good idea anyway. If something happens to the programmer, a lot of knowledge that's not written down anywhere gets lost. Tell that to the guy who controls the budget!! :-) Dave

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Has IBM relinquished the B2C marketplace to the competition?

                                I stradle the line on this topic. In one hand I feel that building a web app should not be as complicated as engineering space-craft. Too many different pieces to a web app can be quite daunting. However I also like the idea of component based application design. I see how this can improve productivity if you have a good base of components to build with and a good understanding. With many pieces to an application sometimes comes different layers of technology. So where do you draw the line? In my breif experience in IT, I see the main problem as companies trying to do too much to stay up to speed. There's really no reason a web app can't have one layer of technology and exist on one platform. (I've seen people do this w/ RPG.) When add go to add functionality you can into trouble by spreading youself too thin across the many different technologies. Take my web project for example. It was out-sourced to another company that didn't know the AS/400. They knew ASP, SQL server, and other M$ technologies. They needed a doo-hickey to interface w/ our AS/400 so they turned to a third party package which extend a Java interface. Since they knew relatively little Java, they scraped together some very basic coding techniques to put it all together in their web application. Now our exisiting package on the '400 also interface w/ another technology group down the road from us. They use VB and FoxPro to dynamically print documents as they are ordered online. They out-sourced company is now running to the end of contract and our local team (of RPG pgmrs) is stuck in the niddle of all this technolgy looking for a direction. Now we have new management who is looking at Oracle and the whole thing becomes a mess. Too much. What does this have to do with the one programmer shop? Just a lesson to learn that people should look to leverage their existing skills instead of jumping on the technology bandwagon. Bradley (was it Bradley?) made a good point. The technologies aren't going anywhere and always ask what can me/my company gain from this new technology prior to diving in. You don't need a power drill for every screw. Sometimes it a lot better to investigate what you have in front of you rather than worry about the razzle and dazzle some one else is doing with their tool set. This is coming from one who is scramling to stay faithful to whatever management is trying to accomplish here. i'll get off my soap box now and leave the floor to some of the more professional guys here.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X