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Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

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  • #31
    Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

    Terry, Ok, I'll bite. Without asking specific questions and trying to probe into your personality, how do you propose I "accept you for your attitude and personality?" Should I take your word for it? Should I hire you without knowing how you deal with pressure or antagonistic environments? Your attitude and personality are considerably more important to me than your skill level. I can buy you better skills once you're on board. Assuming, of course, your personality is one that is acceptable to learning new skills. >Apparently the company I work for thought the same when they hired me Unfortunately, that's flawed logic. The unemployment rate in the U.S. is so low that the country is considered fully employed. I never consider the fact that a candidate is employed as a plus in evaluating their resume. I've been in the corporate world long enough to know that often people that should be fired, aren't And, that often people that are fired, shouldn't. Being unemployed (or being between jobs) doesn't necessarily mean the candidate shouldn't be interviewed. Ask 4,000 people at Disney. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Terry Winchester" wrote in message news:1e94f3b7.26@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Chuck, > > Personally, I have had only a few interviews in my life > - none of which I "controlled" in any respect. Nor would > I want to control an interview. > > > But, I am intelligent enough to know when people are > attempting to play psychological games with me to ascertain > my reactions and I will not tolerate that. They will either > accept me for my skill level, attitude and personality > -or- I leave. BTDT. I feel these attributes are important > in having a teamwork ethic. Apparently the company I work > for thought the same when they hired me > > > But, as Dennis Miller would say: "...I could be wrong" ;-) > > > Terry > >

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    • #32
      Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

      David, Being "clever" in an interview does no one any good. The interviewer that does that is trying to show smart they are. As an interviewer, my job is not to impress the interviewee with my "cleverness" or "smartness." My job is to find the best candidates for my company. A good interviewer will have the candidate sold on the company and the position by the time the candidate leaves the room. By trying to show the candidate cleverness the interviewer will generally do the opposite. Being honest, enthusiastic about the company and projects, and showing genuine interest in the candidate will sell them on the position. I work hard on that and almost everyone goes away from my interviews wanting the job. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "David Abramowitz" wrote in message news:1e94f3b7.29@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Those who have studied logic, know the difference between a dilemma and a paradox. > > I was asked at an interview what I would do in a certain situation. After 15 seconds, I realized the situation was a paradox, said so, and was willing to prove out to it. > > > All it did was piss off the interviewer, who thought he was so clever offering up a paradox to see how I would react. Others in the room told me I was the first to figure it out, and made an offer. Fortunately, I had other offers. > > > Dave > >

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      • #33
        Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

        Pat, Why is a "logic and math" test unfair for a computer programming job? Using the scenario that you described - the candidate just graduated from a programming class and has no programming experience, so we are talking about entry level. Why is a logic test out of line when problem solving skills are a necessity and particularly when there is no work history in the field?

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        • #34
          Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

          Apples and Oranges are both fruit, but there's where their similarities end. How a person copes with a frustrating test does not necessarily indicate how they'd respond to a customer. I could walk out on a badly conducted antagonistic interview, but in the Real World "Customer-Friday" scenario, I might say, "I think so, but can I research that and get back to you in about an hour?" Then possibly outsource much of the needed help without sweating it. I've patiently survived several antagonistic interviews throughout the years, but would I have worked for those companies had they made me an offer? A resounding N O . Besides, you've heard the Stock Brokerage disclaimer that I believe applies to many situations: "Past performance is no guarantee of future results." So let's stop trying to pick people's brains, manipulating candidates, faithlessly making crafty tests many times designed to inflate the interviewer's ego but to show the candidate how much of a jerk you can be. Finally, ask yourself this question: How will the company conducting an antagonistic interview fare against another competing company that doesn't?

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          • #35
            Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

            Well, Susan, you hadn't indicated that you've seen that test, and I won't be able to revive many details of it from my memory as of 8 years ago, so I'll just say that I found it "Horrendous, Never-to-Be-Seen-Of-Again-In-Any-Workplace" and leave it at that. Though now that I think about it more, sometimes these tests are used to eliminate all candidates but the one an employer has already decided on, who is a foreigner entering the country on a VISA. State and Federal Statutes require employers advertise the job even though they secretly want a particular candidate, who of course is somehow privy to the test answers. This unlawful hiring practice has been confirmed to me by both State Authorities and Independent Recruiters as something of a fairly commonplace occurence. Anyways, Susan, you should see the test before responding further.

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            • #36
              Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

              I recently interviewed, and while I know it is not ususally possible to do it this way, for my second interview, I spent several days with the company. Not only did they get an idea of my personality and temperment, but my commitment and skills. I think that we will be a perfect match...I start is about 2 or 3 weeks...

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              • #37
                Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

                Anyways, Susan, you should see the test before responding further. I have taken logic tests as part of the interview process before, however I have no way to know if it is the "IBM" test that you refer to or not. Regardless, I asked a general, philosophical question as to why a "logic and math" test was out of line for a programming job. The H1-B visa issue has been hashed out here before.

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                • #38
                  Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

                  Ron, Many companies will "contract to hire." They can test the contractor for 6 months and then hire if they fit in. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Ron Deardorff" wrote in message news:1e94f3b7.36@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > I recently interviewed, and while I know it is not ususally possible to do it this way, for my second interview, I spent several days with the company. Not only did they get an idea of my personality and temperment, but my commitment and skills. I think that we will be a perfect match...I start is about 2 or 3 weeks... >

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                  • #39
                    Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

                    By trying to show the candidate cleverness the interviewer will generally do the opposite.
                    I think that's how we got here in the first place. Dave...

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                    • #40
                      Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

                      Another way that employers skirt the law, is to not hire the H1-Ber at all, but rather rely on agencies who specialize in importing and placing foreign talent. Dave

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                      • #41
                        Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

                        Without asking specific questions and trying to probe intoyour personality, how do you propose I "accept you for your attitude and personality?" Should I take your word for it?
                        Most interviewers that I've seen use the same methods to determine the personality of a person - the same as they would when meeting anyone else "on the street". Obviously, there are different questions that are asked in a job interview than would be asked when talking to an individual at a bus stop, for example. But antagonism? Unacceptable in my book, the same way it would be unacceptable at the bus stop.
                        Should I hire you without knowing how you deal with pressureor antagonistic environments?
                        I think this is a moot point for most companies. The vast majority of companies today hire using the "probation" theory. That is: If the employee doesn't "cut it" in the first 60-90 days, then he's out the door. If your company doesn't have this policy, then maybe they should
                        Your attitude and personality are considerably more important to me than your skill level. I can buy you better skills once you're on board. Assuming, of course, your personality is one that is acceptable to learning new skills.
                        Nobody could argue with these statements. When I was interviewed for my current job (@ 13 yrs ago) the primary interviewer was the manager of the department. Four other people within the department also had some interview time with me. After it was over, these folks got together and formed their own opinion of my "character". I think this was an effective method. Your methods appear to work effectively for you. More power to you...... Terry

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                        • #42
                          Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

                          Terry, > Most interviewers that I've seen use the same methods to > determine the personality of a person - the same as they > would when meeting anyone else "on the street". Obviously, > there are different questions that are asked in a job > interview than would be asked when talking to an individual > at a bus stop, for example. Certainly I would never hire anyone after a "casual" bus stop type interview. It's too important. My job is not to be "casual" it's to hire the right people for the right job. >But antagonism? Unacceptable > in my book, the same way it would be unacceptable at the > bus stop. Terry, you must be reading the first few words of my posts and then jumping to a reply. I did not say anywhere in any of my posts that I ever use antagonism in an interview. There's never a place for that. What I said is that I move them into an antagonistic environment. The two concepts are not even related. The "antagonistic environment" is studied in classical psychology education. "Antagonism" is treating people with belligerence. If you don't know the difference then we should not continue arguing that point. >The vast > majority of companies today hire using the "probation" > theory. That is: If the employee doesn't "cut it" in the > first 60-90 days, then he's out the door. If your company > doesn't have this policy, then maybe they should My company has a 90 day probation period also. In fact, like most companies we have an "at will" policy that allows termination at any time for no reason. But, that's not the point. If I were to rely on the "crap shoot" theory that you propose and hire someone on "gut feel" for 90 days only to let them go and try all over again, then I'm not doing my job. I admit that there's never certainty when interviewing people (and that's the real fun in my job: people, unlike programs, aren't predictable) I like to be 95% sure that when I make an offer it's going to stick. And, my method works. I've proven it time and time again. > When I was interviewed for my current job (@ 13 yrs ago) > the primary interviewer was the manager of the department. > Four other people within the department also had some > interview time with me. After it was over, these folks > got together and formed their own opinion of my "character". > I think this was an effective method. Again, had you read my posts you would have noted that not only do I encourage other managers to interview (using similar interviewing methods), it's important that they do it on a different day. Candidates can have bad days and good days and I want to see if they're consistent. I may even call them back if another manager sees something that I might have missed. What I DON'T agree on is that members of my programming staff interview any candidates. Programmers have not been professionally trained in the art of interviewing and, in fact, may see a superior candidate as a threat to their job security and might not be perfectly honest about what they see. This is only human nature. A manager that has his staff programmers interview the candidate is insecure in their own selection methods and putting his/her programmers in an unfair situation. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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                          • #43
                            Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

                            Terry, you must be reading the first few words of my posts and then >jumping to a reply. I did not say anywhere in any of my posts that I ever use antagonism in an interview. There's never a place for that.What I said is that I move them into an antagonistic environment. Thetwo concepts are not even related. The "antagonistic environment" isstudied in classical psychology education.
                            Sorry, you're right (checking dictionary...). I'm certainly not a psychology major ;-) When I said "Four other people within the department" I didn't mean managers, I meant staff members. Sorry, I should have been more explicit. But since you don't agree with that methodology either, then I guess we'll agree to disagree ;-) I'm glad everything works out well for you. Terry

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                            • #44
                              Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

                              Oh... I thought Chuck said agnostic environment. Hooray for skepticism!

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                              • #45
                                Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

                                Terry, Just as I wouldn't have other department managers write RPG programs, I wouldn't ask RPG programmers to interview candidates. Interviewing is certainly equal to or even more complicated than programming. And, lest you think that's being said from a management dweeb, I'm a "hands on" programmer (still) with 19 programming languages under my belt. (Been programming since 1973 when I was a Computer Science student at UCLA. RPG was about the 12th language I learned.) Anyone that treats the interview process as a casual exercise that "anybody can do" should be just as willing to give the personnel department access to source code and the RPG compiler, both options are foolhardy. Hiring the wrong people is considerably more dangerous to a company than writing incorrect programs. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Terry Winchester" wrote in message news:1e94f3b7.43@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > >Terry, you must be reading the first few words of my posts and then >jumping to a reply. I did not say anywhere in any of my posts that I > >ever use antagonism in an interview. There's never a place for that. > >What I said is that I move them into an antagonistic environment. The > >two concepts are not even related. The "antagonistic environment" is > >studied in classical psychology education. > > Sorry, you're right (checking dictionary...). I'm certainly > not a psychology major ;-) > > > When I said "Four other people within the department" I didn't > mean managers, I meant staff members. Sorry, I should have been > more explicit. But since you don't agree with that methodology > either, then I guess we'll agree to disagree ;-) > > > I'm glad everything works out well for you. > > > Terry > >

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