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Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

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  • Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

    Well, I guess I must have been one of those useless Certified RPG Programmers you mentioned who walked out on a test, because I took one many years ago and it was "The IBM Test." A logic and math test distributed by IBM for purported use in hiring techies. To the best of my recollection it had not a single question about RPG Programming in it. I believe the Companies' HR gave us something like 45-60 minutes to complete. I completed an exhaustive 1-year course in RPG400 Programming, made the Deans List, and still felt inept about the questions asked in this IBM Test. Not having been checked on at all during the testing period, I simply walked out after about half way through it. Should I have stayed? Should I have waited until HR came back and say something dumb to them like, "You know, there's not a single question about RPG or the AS/400 in here!" or "How do you expect to find anyone to hire? Virtually no average programmer could pass this test!" So no, I didn't do that. Surely either one of two things were going on there: 1) They were sneakily testing candidates' patience with needless testing that really led nowhere. 2) They didn't know what the heck they were doing. So yes, I stomped the dust off my shoes and left without further word. That should have been message enough to them. Hopefully that company eventually figured it all out by now and their hiring is conducted differently today.

  • #2
    Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

    Pat, it's obvious they decided to have one question each about CL, RPG, and OS/400 commands as a means test to filter out the riff raff. And maybe they've been reading about M$ and Acupuncture (oops, I mean the former Anderson Consulting - whatever) who get cutesy with harebrained questions that are supposed indicate your thought processes at work, if not necessarily a correct answer. They would quickly become more than aware of my thought process should I be asked such asinine bs. (I was told the other day that Anderson asked some questions where the answer was 1) put an elephant in the refrigerator and 2) take the elephant out and put a giraffe in. My reply was that it was totally asinine to assume that the refrigerator could not hold both the elephant and the giraffe. Anyone who uttered such nonsense in my presence as a test of my intelligence would do so at their own risk.) As to the AS/400 questions, the one file in CL question is the only one of those that is in the "do they know anymore about it than how to spell it?" category. And if they do, so what? That's the only question from that interviewer? What is that person going to deduce from a response of "one"? So even that as one question is stupid. The second one, SETLL with EQ indicator, is cutesy, and sure I have used it, but I have occasionally seen a SETLL with EQ and then READ if EQ, rather than just go ahead and CHAIN. It's a good test if you want to know if the key exists but for some reason don't want the record just yet, or maybe branch down a couple of different paths of a READ loop based on whether the key exists or not. So how does a question about this obscure cutesy technique tell the interviewer anything about you? I'd say it's more of an insider thing. Given the simplicity of the RPG syntax, it's probably the most useful obscure thing there is, so it gets passed around by word of mouth sooner or later if you're a hard core techie. But as a measure of knowledge of RPG? No, it's the interviewer wanting to demonstate his cuteness rather than a quest to determine your suitability as an RPG programmer. The third, concerning a list of interactive jobs, I have no idea what the answer is and furthermore could care less. That's the way you should feel about this shop. I was the technical interviewer for a very large shop for a few years recently, and I interviewed everybody from seasoned veterans to kids out of school. When I hired on they gave a fairly difficult test which I took, but shortly afterwards they dropped it because it disqualified too many good programmers, people who were known to have done good jobs elsewhere but did poorly on the test. So I just talked to them about what they had done and some of the decisions they made in coding and asked them to explain their reasoning. All you have to do is talk to somebody about programming for a few minutes to see how they think. We never had anybody we hired who turned out to not be productive in RPG. Good luck on your job hunt. The sad fact is is that they will run across somebody who will them very good answers to those questions, and that will accompish their goal of getting a widely experienced person to fill that slot. Unfortunately, there are more widely experienced RPG programmers than there are jobs, and I don't see any reason why that will change for the better. Ralph

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    • #3
      Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

      So how does a question about this obscure cutesy technique tell the interviewer anything about you?
      There used to be a popular misconception that it is more efficient to SETLL than to CHAIN when you only need to test for the record's existence. The rationale is that CHAIN waste cycles loading the buffer with data you don't need. This overlooks the fact that SETLL will always set the record pointer whereas CHAIN does so only if the record is found. It turns out that generally CHAIN will be more efficient. SETLL is only more efficient when the record is expected to be found more often than not. On the S/36 it _was_ true that SETLL was more efficient as the record pointer was not actually set unless a subsequent read was performed. My bet would be that the interviewer in this case is still harbouring this misconception and that's why he thinks it's important for programmers to know about it. I have also failed an interview in the past because I told the interviewer that I had also worked on the S/34 and S/36. The "logic" was that if I was a S/36 person I would inevitably approach everything incorrectly on the AS/400. Dave...

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      • #4
        Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

        I thought of an answer for question #3: WRKUSRJOB USER(*ALL) JOBTYPE(*INTERACT) ==Scott==

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        • #5
          Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

          That's interesting info, Dave. Thanks. Ralph

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          • #6
            Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

            Good answer, Scott! My response would have been to write an RPGLE pgm that called API QUSLJOB, selecting type = 'I'. Of course, the fact that I have just become familiar with this technique in the last week, not having needed it in the previous 14 years of programming on the 38/400/iSeries, says something about the question. Dave

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            • #7
              Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

              It's interesting to me that, out of all of the responses regarding question #3, no one has referenced Operations Navigator. Ops Nav is (supposedly) the "new" way to administer the /400 but it seems as though no one is using it. Steve

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              • #8
                Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

                Also, if you missed it WRKSBSJOB QINTER

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                • #9
                  Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

                  Interesting thought. That's very similar to what some IBMers said recently! Dave

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                  • #10
                    Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

                    While I am sure that it is true that many companies use testing improperly, I have used testing successfully for several years. What I have found, however, is that you must not look at only the answers but also the attitude and composure of the person before, during and after the test. Let me give you two examples: 1) I gave a verbal test to an entry level person who had some AS/400 programming in college. She got most of the answers wrong as I would have expected. What she did do, however, was admit to not having the knowledge, and when asked to guess used logic and intuition to come up with a reasonable response. She was hired and proved that the aptitude and thought she showed in testing was correct. 2) I would also give a practical test for all programmers. The test was one of those type you would see on Star Trek where there is no possible way to successfully complete it. Then we add a 3 hour time limit to it. Very few people ever came close to completing it. What it did show was a person's ability to break a task down into pieces, prioritize the pieces, and their ability to work under pressure. 3 people walked out in the middle of the test never to be heard from again. One left in tears. As I was hiring for a consulting firm at the time, I was glad to find out a person's reactions to stress before they were at the customer site. True, you cannot know a person's true abilities through testing (I got 700 on my math ACT and a D in precalculus in the same quarter in High School) but testing can show some very important information. My two cents. John Panzenhagen

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                    • #11
                      Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

                      John wrote: " ... I would also give a practical test for all programmers. The test was one of those type you would see on Star Trek where there is no possible way to successfully complete ... ". I was given one of these tests, though I would call it more of a psychological test rather than a practical test. I thought it was a nifty idea because it tests that candidate's attitude rather than simply their memory skills. Skills can be learned and things like op codes, reserved words, and message id's can be looked up in a reference manual. Attitude, on the other hand, is something that rarely changes. Have you ever had the "pleasure" of working with someone who was technically very good but had a negative attitude or just couldn't handle stress? I have, and it's caustic to a team.

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                      • #12
                        Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

                        John,
                        You're correct in looking at their "attitude" instead of their skills. Attitude, aka personality traits, are something you can NOT change. You will be stuck with the personality that you hire. However, skills are something you can always enhance through training and experience once the person is on board. Never hire an experienced programmer with a poor personality.
                        chuck
                        Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.
                        While I am sure that it is true that many companies use testing improperly, I have used testing successfully for several years. What I have found, however, is that you must not look at only the answers but also the attitude and composure of the person before, during and after the test. Let me give you two examples: 1) I gave a verbal test to an entry level person who had some AS/400 programming in college. She got most of the answers wrong as I would have expected. What she did do, however, was admit to not having the knowledge, and when asked to guess used logic and intuition to come up with a reasonable response. She was hired and proved that the aptitude and thought she showed in testing was correct. 2) I would also give a practical test for all programmers. The test was one of those type you would see on Star Trek where there is no possible way to successfully complete it. Then we add a 3 hour time limit to it. Very few people ever came close to completing it. What it did show was a person's ability to break a task down into pieces, prioritize the pieces, and their ability to work under pressure. 3 people walked out in the middle of the test never to be heard from again. One left in tears. As I was hiring for a consulting firm at the time, I was glad to find out a person's reactions to stress before they were at the customer site. True, you cannot know a person's true abilities through testing (I got 700 on my math ACT and a D in precalculus in the same quarter in High School) but testing can show some very important information. My two cents. John Panzenhagen

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                        • #13
                          Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

                          The problem with probing personalities, is that an individual's personality will always be relative to your own. What constitutes a "poor" personality will be relative to the personality of the person sitting in judgement. This is a grey area, as people tend to be prejudiced. Did you know that you have (statistically) a better chance of getting a position, if the person doing the hiring is the same height and weight as you? As an independent, I go on more interviews than most. There are times I've felt that I've blown an interview, only to win a contract. The opposite has also been true. Unless the individual on the other side of the desk spends the allotted time picking his nose, or anything blatantly obnoxious, I might think that personality judgement on a single interview might be hasty. I, for one, would hate to lose a good individual because of initial non-technical impressions. Dave

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                          • #14
                            Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

                            Dave wrote: "The problem with probing personalities, is that an individual's personality will always be relative to your own. What constitutes a "poor" personality will be relative to the personality of the person sitting in judgement." What we were talking about (at least I was) is about people reacting badly to a stressful situation. My employer experienced candidates sneaking out without a word just as John did. That sort of person probably will not do well under stress. The same can be said for someone who gets really angry at the test. My employer was looking for someone to make reasonable progress on the test, while retaining a good attitude towards it. This is not the same as making assumptions about temperment based on height, weight, or anything else. These tests enable the interviewer to make assumptions about a candidate's behavior based on their behavior. I don't see too many "good individuals" losing from this interviewing technique.

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                            • #15
                              Interviewing AS/400 Candidates like the NAZI's did.

                              2) I would also give a practical test for all programmers. The test was one of those type you would see on Star Trek where there is no possible way to successfully complete it. Then we add a 3 hour time limit to it. Very few people ever came close to completing it. What it did show was a person's ability to break a task down into pieces, prioritize the pieces, and their ability to work under pressure. 3 people walked out in the middle of the test never to be heard from again. One left in tears. As I was hiring for a consulting firm at the time, I was glad to find out a person's reactions to stress before they were at the customer site.

                              I don't see how this is a valuable tool. Let's take a look at your examples with a sideways glance, for example: the 3 people that walked, they could have thought that your expectations were unrealistic and decided to cut losses. The one that left in tears could have thought they were just not qualified fora position that they desperately wanted. The ones that stuck it out "wasted" 3 hours time without/before realizing they would never be able to accomplish the goal. A much better way is to ask the candidate to share their experiences when faced with a stressful situation. Another question would be to ask what they have done when they were presented with what seemed like an unrealistic expectation/timeline/project scope. Also, this stress test is easily broken by a headhunter prepping a candidate. Bill

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