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Domino & Webshphere on same AS/400

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  • Domino & Webshphere on same AS/400

    JC wrote: "So... has anybody made Domino and Websphere work nicely on the same box?" I didn't see a response yet, JC, but if it helps IBM declares that they expect both Websphere and Domino to be running together on every AS/400. That kind of marketing level talk doesn't get into the details of IP addresses and ports, but I think the expectation is that each would have their own IP address and set of ports and not bind together as some low level. I would attribute this behavior to a shared IP address setting somewhere instead of two entries rather than OS/400 trying to merge the two at a low level. But again this is just based on my understanding gleaned from info on their web site. Ralph ralph@ee.net

  • #2
    Domino & Webshphere on same AS/400

    So... has anybody made Domino and Websphere work nicely on the same box? At a recent IBM presentation, I stated that I was confused due to what appeared to be overlapping functions of DOMINO and Websphere. I have a client who is in the process of installing DOMINO. Was this a mistake? Should they be using Websphere if that's the direction IBM is taking? The answer surprised me: Websphere was targeted at very large installations, while DOMINO was more appropriate for small to mid-size firms. Dave

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    • #3
      Domino & Webshphere on same AS/400

      "IBM declares that they expect both Websphere and Domino to be running together on every AS/400." ---------------------------------------------------------------- IBM has been pushing Domino for years. Ralph - Do you really believe that all previously reluctant AS/400 shops should now finally begin the move to Domino? Where can I view these IBM pronoucements?

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      • #4
        Domino & Webshphere on same AS/400

        "The answer surprised me: Websphere was targeted at very large installations, while DOMINO was more appropriate for small to mid-size firms." -------------------------------------------------------- Dave - The answer also surprises me. Has IBM written this down anywhere or is this merely one IBMer's opinion based on who knows what? So far my understanding is that it is extremely difficult to justify the move to DOMINO for a small shop. Both the dollar cost of DOMINO plus the learning curve for DOMINO have kept me personally from heading in that direction. Have things now changed? If we put up a web site, is DOMINO now the recommended choice?

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        • #5
          Domino & Webshphere on same AS/400

          IBM declares that they expect both Websphere and Domino to be running together on every AS/400." ---------------------------------------------------------------- IBM has been pushing Domino for years. Ralph - Do you really believe that all previously reluctant AS/400 shops should now finally begin the move to Domino? Where can I view these IBM pronoucements? ---------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Frank, From one of my past posts.... When recently reviewing IBM Lotus Notes Domino R5 specs, I wondered how Domino fit in with Websphere. After all, they are both HTTP web servers. It turns out they don't. Not only does IBM acknowledge that the Notes and Domino aspects of the Domino product come from two entirely different directions, one client oriented and the other server oriented, that will be merged someday by having us program in Javascript (I am not making this up), but IBM says that the Domino and Websphere web servers serve two entirely different needs and IBM expects a normal configuration to have both of them running. The original R5 announcement info has been obscured, but this current quote will do: http://www.as400.ibm.com/domino/faqs/over2.htm#anchor5 "Q. When would I use Lotus Domino vs. WebSphere as a Web application server? A. WebSphereTM and Domino both provide robust alternatives for building and maintaining dynamic Web sites. In fact, many full-function Web sites will use both Domino and WebSphere, because their individual strengths complement each other. Domino excels when an application is primarily geared toward unstructured data or requires sophisticated collaborative capabilities such as workflow or distributed content authoring. WebSphere excels when an application requires industrial-strength transaction management, significant scalability, or where business logic is completely encapsulated in distributed components such as servlets or Enterprise Java Beans. Together, Lotus Domino and IBM Websphere offer customers the capabilities needed to rapidly build high value e-business applications. Over time, we can expect more convergence in the underlying services of the two Web application server platforms." Note that IBM has changed their characterization of Domino from a "client based" server equal to but different than the "server based" Websphere, to describing Domino as an "unstructured data" server. This has always been true but this is a not so subtle de-emphasis of Notes apps in favor of Websphere apps, an ongoing IBM fixation. In addition, I made this recent post: "... IBM has decided to eliminate the dependence of Raven knowledge management system on the Domino back end infrastructure. This just before a planned first quarter release of the software. IBM says "We're becoming more and more agnostic. We don't care what messaging system or database system customers use." Websphere Advanced will now be the transaction engine for Raven. But what sayeth the Lotus developers? "This is not at all how it was conceived. They're talking about integrating it with Websphere and not taking advantage of Domino. It's getting too complex." And one source close to the Raven project said: "I think it's very appropriate that they named this after the bird of death. Edgar Allen Poe would approve."" Note that even though IBM describes Domino as the unstructured data server, they couldn't let a "knowledge management" server product ship without requiring Websphere. Couldn't be anything more unstructured than knowledge management. A blind man could read these tea leaves. Ralph ralph@ee.net

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          • #6
            Domino & Webshphere on same AS/400

            I posted "Note that IBM has changed their characterization of Domino from a "client based" server equal to but different than the "server based" Websphere, to describing Domino as an "unstructured data" server." Correction: the client and server deliniations referred to Notes and Domino, not Domino and Websphere, but the shift to an unstructured data characterization of Domino still has the same result. Ralph ralph@ee.net

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            • #7
              Domino & Webshphere on same AS/400

              "A blind man could read these tea leaves." ----------------------------------------------- Ralph - I am somewhat blind in this area. So here is my tea leaf conclusion - Microsoft wins again! Does anyone disagree?

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              • #8
                Domino & Webshphere on same AS/400

                Ralph - Thanks for taking the time to add additional information to this interesting and timely thread. One of these days, I need to come to a conclusion as to which way to recommend my employer go with their AS/400 and their currently outsourced web site!

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                • #9
                  Domino & Webshphere on same AS/400

                  For what it is worth, the IBMers I have spoken with also recommend Domino for medium size applications at most. It should be pointed out that one of the main reasons I am moving my web serving functions to websphere is that the logs and operation of Websphere is accepted and recognized by the rest of the world. When I talk to vendors, it seems that the Domino webserver is pretty universally disliked and frowned upon by companies. One company that provides tools to analyze webserver traffic based on the logs was prepared to charge me a premium if the server was a Domino server.... If I am going to do a lot of http action, I would prefer to be chosing a platform that carries more respect... SO I am still looking for any ideas on why the Domino server might be allocating the http port (80) on any new IPs... Thanks, JC

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                  • #10
                    Domino & Webshphere on same AS/400

                    Frank Whittemore asked: Has IBM written this down anywhere or is this merely one IBMer's opinion based on who knows what? IMO the latter is true. I haven't seen anything in writing. In fact purchasing Domino, is an unnecessarily complicated task. You can't obtain a simple but comprehensive listing of all of the parts. If you need something else, it may be an expensive add-on, or it may be included. What I found out for my client, is that given 30 seats, the enterprise edition is only a few hundred bucks more than the standard server. So, given the fact that this client is only one CPU, they are going with the enterprise server. OTOH - pricing seems to change daily. The primary impetus for using Domino in this case, was not Domino at all, but rather the Notes client. A comprehensive Mail, messaging, and calendar program that would be flexible, easy to program, and would integrate with the existing DB2/400 database became a business requirement. We are going to start using only the most fundamental of facilities, and will grow from there. Dave

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                    • #11
                      Domino & Webshphere on same AS/400

                      I'll disagree Frank. MS competition to Domino is Exchange Server. When you look at the price/performance/functional capabilities of each in comparison, you soon find out why IBM is selling "bumblebees" to NT shops. Dave

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                      • #12
                        Domino & Webshphere on same AS/400

                        For those who haven't yet had the opportunity to work with both Domino and WebSphere, let me clarify a little bit. WebSphere is simply a servlet/JSP engine (like Tomcat is for Apache). Advanced Edition also supports EJB, but that's only applicable to the very small number of shops for whom a cradle-to-grave EJB development effort makes sense. But let's take a quick gander at the alternatives. 1. EJB: Enterprise JavaBeans are a technique for developing applications designed to totally replace traditional development with an object-oriented approach. Not for the faint of heart, this requires a complete retooling of your shop. 2. JSP/servlets: JavaServer Pages and servlets are the server-side Java solution that allows you to create dynamic web pages that can receive content from Java programs running on the server. These programs can in turn, however, easily be written to call traditional HLL programs, thus leveraging your existing skill sets. This is my favorite approach. 3. CGI: In this technique, traditional HLL programs are modified to send out HTML directly rather than write to a screen. While quick to implement, this technology can quickly bog your development down to a morass of HTML implementation details. Modifying your web pages means changing the hardcoded HTML in your program and recompiling (unless you've written your own preprocessor, in which case you've reinvented the JSP wheel). 4. Domino: The web equivalent of Lotus Notes. Not a development language per se, Domino provides the ability to put Notes "applications" more or less directly onto the net (there are some significant restrictions, but that's the basic idea). Note that I put the word "application" in quotes: that's because just about anybody who has actually implemented large-scale Notes installations will tell you that Notes is great for workflow applications and absolutely horrible for transaction-based applications. What's the difference? Workflow means documents, like incident tracking and knowledge management, while transaction-based means the green-screen data entry oriented applications we traditionally run on the AS/400. So what does this all mean? It means that, most likely, we will use approach two or three (IMHO, two is the better choice) to redeploy our current applications, and if we use Domino, it will be for things we haven't traditionally run on the AS/400 until now. Domino should NOT be used to deploy things like ERP applications. Where does WebSphere fit in all of this? Well, WebSphere Standard Edition runs both servlets/JSP and CGI just fine. So WAS SE - which comes free with the AS/400 - is probably the best solution for everything you'll need to move existing functions to the web. And if you decide to also run some knowledge management types of applications using Domino, you'll run a Domino server alongside your WebSphere server. In that case, your WebSphere pages will have links to your Domino pages, and vice versa. Joe

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                        • #13
                          Domino & Webshphere on same AS/400

                          Has anyone tried Joe's favorite approach? How is it working out for you?

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                          • #14
                            Domino & Webshphere on same AS/400

                            I am trying to get Websphere loaded up on a box that is currently running Domino. I need the HTTP component of Domino and I have a couple of websites (each with it's own IP address) configured within Domino. When I add a new IP address that I am configuring Websphere (AS/400 HTTP) to use, I notice that it seems to be "binding" with Lotus and showing the black "Lotus/Domino" page when I go to it... If I modify the AS/400 HTTP instance configuration and give it a port of 8080 instead of "80", I can reach my new Websphere webpage by appending a ":8080" to the end of my web address. So... has anybody made Domino and Websphere work nicely on the same box? Have I just missed something obvious? Thanks, JC

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