10 years too late...

[shalomc2003]

The System i is still a dead end platform, even with IBM giving it last minute resuscitation attempts.
Sure, there is still room for a few experts to maintain the existing applications and systems, there are still some die hard shops that will continue to run their entire workload on this platform.

But it is not growing and I do not believe it will ever grow again. RPGOA will be used to facelift existing applications and not to write new ones.
Most sensible managements will eventually move over to different application platforms, if only to not be too dependent on a diminishing, aging professional group.

[Sarge]

uh, no. it's not.

it is alive and well and aging well, like fine wine.

yes there have been new version come out annually or so, but then again, i dont think you're using Dos. 4.1 are you?

-Sarge

"it's better to let people think you are a fool, than to open your mouth an prove them right."
w. rogers

[efnkay]

The question for the answer I'm giving is: First...Growth is new businesses and existing ones moving to our beloved i...Or I guess you could consider a massive new development effort in any i shop "growth". The question: Is there any growth in the i market...??? Shucks I don't know. Haven't looked. What positions if any are out there anymore? The last time I looked...There was still a lot of activity in Dallas, some in the midwest, and more on the east-southeast coast down to FLA. Several years ago that is...

My guess is what's there are mostly fix/patch and keep the old stuff running jobs. Including whatever "enhancements" they can get out of you that are probably outstanding requests up to 2 years old...That you might get to do if the requestor is still with the company. But generally I haven't heard of any jobs, or seen any jobs posted, or know of anyone "moving" to another position, or even been pestered by recruiters in quite a while. There are no more greenbean to master RPGeeper creepers being grown. (No insult, I consider myself by the same name.)The only opportunity to go from greenbean to master is driven by work, or better, by demand. I just don't feel it out there anymore either, and I don't expect it to become a dominant programming field again as it once was. Of course . Good Luck as always.

[tcsbiz]

No action here

The i is a dead platform as far as programming. Many shops are using it as a data store and writing applications in other languages. Maybe the i isn't dead but RPG certainly is. I'm getting pestered by recruiters for my .NET and Javascript knowledge rather than anything i related.

[Sarge]

respectfully "what a crock!"

yes, even i use the i5 as a server for our transactions from outside, i use it to run pc functions, i use it to store and process mass amounts of data. the i is far from dead.

ibm missed the boat with introducing /free so late in the game, but the truth of the matter is, i write /free, java, html, pearl and c++. you gotta know that i learned c when there was no ++, no visual, etc. started with rpg/ii on the system 34 and even did a few apps for the local water department that was on a system 3.

rpg has evolved, slowly to be sure, but think of what ibm did for the industry: they made everything backwards compatible. this loyalty to their RPG programmers (except to the old plugboarders and punchcard users) was amazing. MAC, Apple and even everyone's favourite target WinDoze leaves their fanbase in the dust when they roll out a major release.

it was not until release 4 or 5 that ibm finally dropped some of the former support in the OS.

although i can now write code on the i5 that closely resembles "real" languages, i can still hit the rpg/iii code of many vendors such as JD Edwards, PRMS, MAPICS, BPCS, etc. not that i want to, but there is a need to.

if you look at c++ and other languages of the genre, you will see that they too, support the "crap" that came from them in the early years.

yes, RPG was almost 20 years old when i learned it, but then again, your languages such as c++, Visual Basic and others were around when i was in college OVER 20 years ago.

guess there some ancient in all of us.

-sarge

[efnkay]

There definitely is ancient here...We check our date fields against the Mayan calendar and we don't know what to do after Dec. 21, 2012...???
I guess we go "julian" and take it one day at a time from there...??? :-))) Good luck all.

[Sarge]

lillian dates are the latest kick!

-sarge

[Jean Mikhaleff]

Origin of this legacy perception:

70% of advertisings are about modernization. Typically those advertisings used to show a 5250 screen BEFORE and the same much more sexy screen AFTER modernization operation, which means the platform i is not modern and needs to be modernized.

When you see those advertisings every day over ten years, and if you are not an IT guy but a journalist or a manager, the legacy perception becomes as obvious as a rock and your strategy would be: Microsoft for new developments and the legacy RPG applications to be modernized with modernization tools, waiting to be replaced as soon as possible.

The modernization tool vendors used to say to the prospects that IBM will never integrate native Web UI like 5250. Management understands that without modernization vendors the platform i would not survive any longer. So the legacy perception spreads over IBM Company, IBM engineers and POWER too. When the clients leave for Microsoft they think that IBM is a legacy Company because IBM is not able to get rid of the modernization cycle of its products.

3 positive solutions to change perception and reinvigorate IBM i:
1- IBM has to change the perception by providing as quickly as possible standard native web UI like 5250 integrated which means the web implementation of specific handler with a web controller.

2- The second thing is to provide RPGOA integrated and some Handlers integrated for free with Excel, XML, and some other kind of files.

3- To compete with Microsoft, the platform i would have Office integrated somewhere and smaller servers at lower price for very small companies to sell all kind of integrated business software. For example, in France you used to have specific AS/400 solutions integrated for garage and pharmacist. IBM must sell a very huge number of POWER i/OS, hundred times more in order to be positively known everywhere. The platform i has all the required qualities to succeed.

Today, ISVs like Look Software advertise both to modernize and/or to migrate to Microsoft. With Microsoft or Oracle there are no such modernization or migration vendors. It’s clear for anyone that it’s up to IBM to get rid of this modernization cycle. Once the platform i will have native web UI integrated, you will see in no time new ISVs coming for new developments, adding real value and it will become obvious that the platform i is the best ever for business for small and big companies.

[spitcher]

I'll respectfully call BS.

I'm 31 and hardly an old timer. I'll gladly pick up the ball to dissuade those "sensible managements" the OP spoke of.

I can definitely see the forest through the trees and look at the AS/400 as a true solution machine. So parts of it look a little aged...big deal. You can write your .NET application and put it on a Windows server and deal with the headaches that the AS/400 magically doesn't seem to have.

What IBM truly lacks is the ability to properly market this machine. Almost like they were ashamed to continue calling it an AS/400 when they re-branded it around 10 years ago.

[efnkay]

Yeah...They (ibm) could have used some more catchy brand phrases like..."It takes a licking and keeps on ticking." or maybe "If it brings great joy, it's a Hasbro Toy." or "Pop-pop-phiz-phiz, Oh what a relief it is." Anyone know a marketing catch-phrase for the i. Aye-aye Cap'n Crunch... :-)))

[Sarge]

or like the song for Sponge Bob Squarepants says:

Aye, Aye, Captain!

Oh...who was once called Big Blue?
forgot to copyright the name and are sad as you know who?
has a great midrange machine?
changed their name but not their marketing scheme?
Deep Blue, that's who
Deep Blue, that's who
DDDEEEEEPPPPPPP BLLUUUUEEEEEEE!
tweetle, deeeep, beeeee-bedeeep!

-sarge

[tcsbiz]

Sure. You might think that what I have to say is a crock or BS, but, I'm getting paid to write in languages other than RPG for platforms other than the i. The i is the best computer ever. There's no question about it. But, I can't make a living with it. The demand is no longer there. We can preach about how good the uptime is but the green screen perception is still there.

[Sarge]

$#it or get off the pot!

the demand is there, but we programmers can be like spoiled children....we want it our way and our way only!!!!!

i've spent 29 years as a reservist. been activated six times for natural disasters, spent a 8 month tour in iraq/kuwait in 1990-1991, spent a year in bosnia 92-93, spent 3 months in panama 1989-1990 (just cause), spent 3+ years in iraq (2003-2006) and had a job to come home to each time.

my last 2 years in iraq saw me get "hit" several times, resulting in 3 purple hearts, two commendations, one for valor and 18 months in the hospital going thru surgery and rehab. i quit my job volutarily with the company in florida because they needed help, needed to cut some costs and i was not going to be there for them for awhile.

when i got released from the hospital, i took a job in tucson, az. after a year there, i got involuntarily mobilized for a 2-year period to teach advance weaponry and infantry tactics to the ACTIVE ARMY. during that 2 years, the company i worked for was sold off due to economic issues and it was time to search for a job, again.

i interviewed with a company (several in fact) in my last two months of active duty, accepted an offer from a company on the condition that they pay me for my days off for training. not extended time, just up to 21 days for our annual training and any friday or monday that i had to report to my reserve unit.

i left my active duty assignment on a friday and started my new job that payed what i demanded, well over 75k, because they had been looking but had not found any quality as/400 programmer/analysts for nearly 6 months. at the time of my interview, i was competing with four others for the same position. i won out.

bottom line is, the jobs are out there, i get 2-3 job requirements a week from recruiters, but i am happy with my location, not in florida or arizona anymore, and the industry and the platform.

do i know java, c, perl, .net? yes. not as well as i'd like, because i am a /400 programmer, but the facts are that sometimes you have to pack up the truck and move. leave that comfort zone, expand your knowlege and realize that we are a commodity to be leased until we find a higher bidder or the company has a downturn.

in a nutshell: "ya just gotta get off yer duff if you expect to improve your stuff."

-sarge

[tcsbiz]

"ya just gotta get off yer duff if you expect to improve your stuff."

I have. Several times. The difference is that the jobs I found when I needed them were not RPG jobs. I still dabble in maintenance but haven't done new development for about 5 years. I guess I'll leave that to you Sarge.

Thank you for serving. I served in the Navy during the 'Nam days and am still having problems with the aftermath of injuries I sustained.

BTW: I was contacted the other day for a .NET opportunity. I asked the recruiter about any i jobs and they said "huh?". Maybe I need a new recruiter.

[Sarge]

service and i jobs

i figured you had some military time behind you with your attitude and lack of anger response to my (purposely) asinine comment. i do encourage people to move around if their job market is stagnant, but usually i have some tact.

thanks yourself for serving. there are too few of us who do so, and i hope you deal well with your injuries. mine were from gunshot wounds outside of tikrit and later two blast injuries from an ied and your old buddy, the RPG. no joke, took some shrapnel to the left jaw from a truck that got hit by the good 'ol rocket propelled grenade.

when i took my first job in the industry in '83, my soon to be boss looked really hard at me because he asked me if i could describe the cycle of operation of RPG II. not having a clue that there was a programming language called RPG II, much less that it used a "cycle", i began the history lesson with how it is armed and fired then took it back to the panzerfaust anti-tank weapon of the german army in WWII.

he thought i was a kook, until i noticed the blank look on his face and stopped to ask if that is what he meant. when he said the RPG programming language, i let him know that there was no software behind the RPG, it was a simple design that had no guidance control system. what a hoot, that was!!!!!!

-sarge