PC Shopping Nightmare

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PC Shopping Nightmare

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My wife and I have been trying to order new PC's for her business from a MAJOR vendor from Texas. We had specific operating system requirements (so that all PC's in the office would be using a common operating system & to meet requirements of an application package). I tried to use their online configuration system but that blocked me from picking some software options, saying they weren't supported on the OS we selected (never mind that we have been using these programs with that OS for three years) so I elimianted them from the requirement because I could order the software from another vendor. Next I tried to place the order through their online system but could not get their system to process the configuration into an order so I printed the configuration descriptions and had my wife call the order in to their toll free number. The systems arrived within three or four days but the operating systems were not what we had specified, one system had been changed to a more expensive processor and "extras" were included that we did not order (with corresponding increases on the amount of bill). When we complained they agreed to replace the systems with ones configured as we requested but said we would not be eligble for software support for the OS and that we could not get the WordPerfect Suite of products that we had specified. To answer the obvious question, I have been doing this so long that I began using WordPerfect when it was the most widely used product and it still has many features that are superior to Word, ditto for Corel's spreadsheet & presentation graphics. At any rate it has been several weeks and we still have the original cartons sitting in my wife's office waiting for the replacement units and authorization to return those we did receive.

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PC Shopping Nightmare

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Rnock, It appears from your post you just might be talking about Dell. If you understand how Dell works, they have great products that allow you to get exactly what you want. I know as I spent over $1 million on PCs and servers from Dell last year alone. The key to remember is this: If you buy the Dimension line then you will be getting the latest and greatest technology. That's the good news. The bad news is that you can buy a Dimension on Monday and then buy a Dimension on Friday and they may come with completely different internal hardware, mother board and software. The Dimension line is intended to be the "cheap" line so the components and software blend changes almost daily. If, however, you buy the Optiplex line you will be guaranteed that in any given model the components will NEVER change for the life of the model. Most models have a lifetime of about 18-24 months. Also, the Optiplex line has a higher quality of components installed in the PCs. The good news is that you can create an image with all of your software including iSeries Access, Office, email, etc. and send it to Dell. They will put that image on every PC you order. The reason this is important is that the image includes the software drivers for all of the components. If the components changed then your image would be worthless. The bad news is that the Optiplex line is more expensive. However, we more than make up in labor costs by getting PCs that hit the ground running with our specs and our software. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "RNock" wrote in message news:6b088421.0@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > My wife and I have been trying to order new PC's for her business from a MAJOR vendor from Texas. We had specific operating system requirements (so that all PC's in the office would be using a common operating system & to meet requirements of an application package). > > I tried to use their online configuration system but that blocked me from picking some software options, saying they weren't supported on the OS we selected (never mind that we have been using these programs with that OS for three years) so I elimianted them from the requirement because I could order the software from another vendor. > > Next I tried to place the order through their online system but could not get their system to process the configuration into an order so I printed the configuration descriptions and had my wife call the order in to their toll free number. > > The systems arrived within three or four days but the operating systems were not what we had specified, one system had been changed to a more expensive processor and "extras" were included that we did not order (with corresponding increases on the amount of bill). When we complained they agreed to replace the systems with ones configured as we requested but said we would not be eligble for software support for the OS and that we could not get the WordPerfect Suite of products that we had specified. > > To answer the obvious question, I have been doing this so long that I began using WordPerfect when it was the most widely used product and it still has many features that are superior to Word, ditto for Corel's spreadsheet & presentation graphics. > > At any rate it has been several weeks and we still have the original cartons sitting in my wife's office waiting for the replacement units and authorization to return those we did receive.

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PC Shopping Nightmare

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Thanks Chuck, For explaining why I had my terrible experience with Dell( I would add buy a Dimension if service to you means replacement). Thanks again for the insight into the why.

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PC Shopping Nightmare

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ctibodoe, I have purchased Dimensions for my own personal use and have never had any trouble with them. However, lately I've been buying the Inspiron laptop with a 15.4" progressive scan display that rivals an HDTV display. Bought one last summer for my daughter who is at San Francisco State and the playback of DVD movies is spectacular. Very reliable and FAST PC also! chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "ctibodoe" wrote in message news:6b088421.2@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Thanks Chuck, > > For explaining why I had my terrible experience with Dell( I would add buy a Dimension if service to you means replacement). Thanks again for the insight into the why.

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PC Shopping Nightmare

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They are virtually forcing us to select Windows XP as the operating system, they say they can no longer configure computers with Windows 2000, Professional. Our software vendor does not support a version for Windows XP because the Dimension 4 database they use becomes unstable under XP.

[boomer400]

PC Shopping Nightmare

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I believe that the existing PC design concept is obsolete. A single processor system with OSs barely capable of handling multiple processors and a limited memory and bus design is hardly the wave of the future. What you can buy from Dell right now is not that much different in concept from what IBM had available 20 years ago. We should be getting much more sophisticated modular designs than are available. It's ridiculous that in order to run bigger apps we have to buy ever more powerful CPUs. It makes sense from a pure economic view (capitalism and planned obsolescence for renewing markets at low cost) but is no good for users. I think that the future of PCs is not going to be established in the US. It will probably happen in China, Japan or Taiwan as they are already building most of the existing physical designs anyways. Intel is perpetuating the old PC technologies in order to maintain their lock on old-style Intel CPU to OS sales structures. If you look at how the broad technology products are converging, most PC functions are too complex and too messy compared to hardware based functions. For instance, the new Epson LCD monitors have photo memory chip interfaces, picture printers and R/W cd/roms built into the TV. All you need is power and the remote control to print a decent 5X7 photo. It may not be a perfect Adobe Photoshop version but for most people it's perfect. Very easy and simple to use and maintain. It's a pretty simple jump from there to other functions as well. An XBox or PS2 is fairly equivalent to lowend PCs right now and it wouldn't be too difficult to build some that have printer interfaces. These systems boot up in a matter of seconds and have plenty of processing power; there's no reason to disbelieve that a given manufacturer who's not deeply invested in the PC market couldn't come out with a strong e-Machine like unit that could do most PC functions cheaply and be as reliable and as simple as an Xbox. And that would include simple apps like word processing and spreadsheets.

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PC Shopping Nightmare

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RNock wrote: > They are virtually forcing us to select Windows XP as the operating > system, they say they can no longer configure computers with Windows > 2000, Professional. That might be true for a Dimension, but it's not true across their lines. Check here: http://catalog.us.dell.com/CS1/cs1pa...463&l=en&s=bsd This is the Optiplex 170L and it offers W2K as an OS. Bill

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PC Shopping Nightmare

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We have been successful in ordering PCs and servers with Win 2K here at the office. You can NOT get that with the Dimension line, though. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "RNock" wrote in message news:6b088421.4@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > They are virtually forcing us to select Windows XP as the operating system, they say they can no longer configure computers with Windows 2000, Professional. Our software vendor does not support a version for Windows XP because the Dimension 4 database they use becomes unstable under XP.

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PC Shopping Nightmare

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boomer, Funny, the industry seems to think differently than you. The boom of buying new computers to keep up with apps has almost died everywhere except in the gaming world. Most people don't need an upgrade these days, except for memory or disk. The current round of 3 GHz computers seem to satiate all but the hi end gaming tasks. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "boomer400" wrote in message news:6b088421.5@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > I believe that the existing PC design concept is obsolete. A single processor system with OSs barely capable of handling multiple processors and a limited memory and bus design is hardly the wave of the future. What you can buy from Dell right now is not that much different in concept from what IBM had available 20 years ago. We should be getting much more sophisticated modular designs than are available. It's ridiculous that in order to run bigger apps we have to buy ever more powerful CPUs. It makes sense from a pure economic view (capitalism and planned obsolescence for renewing markets at low cost) but is no good for users. I think that the future of PCs is not going to be established in the US. It will probably happen in China, Japan or Taiwan as they are already building most of the existing physical designs anyways. Intel is perpetuating the old PC technologies in order to maintain their lock on old-style Intel CPU to OS sales structures. If you look at how the broad technology products are converging, most PC functions are too complex and too messy compared to hardware based functions. For instance, the new Epson LCD monitors have photo memory chip interfaces, picture printers and R/W cd/roms built into the TV. All you need is power and the remote control to print a decent 5X7 photo. It may not be a perfect Adobe Photoshop version but for most people it's perfect. Very easy and simple to use and maintain. It's a pretty simple jump from there to other functions as well. An XBox or PS2 is fairly equivalent to lowend PCs right now and it wouldn't be too difficult to build some that have printer interfaces. These systems boot up in a matter of seconds and have plenty of processing power; there's no reason to disbelieve that a given manufacturer who's not deeply invested in the PC market couldn't come out with a strong e-Machine like unit that could do most PC functions cheaply and be as reliable and as simple as an Xbox. And that would include simple apps like word processing and spreadsheets.

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PC Shopping Nightmare

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Thanks for you input Bill, The original systems that we ordered and that were delivered were Optiplex systems but they had Windows XP installed. They disregarded our OS specifications even though they were choices on their configurator. Replacement Optiplex units were finally received last Friday, these do have Windows 2000 installed but the shrink wrapped OS software delivered with them is XP! They also gave us quite a run-around with the Word Perfect suite but I believe they installed the latest version on the new units. I gave up on trying to get the McAffee software, we'll purchase that on-line from McAffee.

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Thanks for the feedback Chuck, I worked as a consultant for several years & ordered or configured Optiplex systems for a few clients with small businesses. This is the first time that I tried using the on line configurator and it simply told me that many software choices were incompatible if I did not select Windows XP. However the problem seems to be a change of policy regarding the configuration of Operating Systems. Perhaps the drive to cut costs, moving support offshore & declining number of competitors are leading management to push "cookie cutter" solutions at the expense of meeting customer preferences. I certainly hope this isn't true but the software vendor of my wife's application has reported increasing problems with getting Dell to provide configurations to his specifications.

[boomer400]

PC Shopping Nightmare

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Actually I think that's what I was trying to infer; apparently I wasn't clear enough though. My thought was that rather than buying the current PC type of hardware that needs a lot of OS maintenance, application maintenance, security maintenance, network maintenance etc. which is where most of our costs occur, wouldn't it be nice to have a "brick" where it plugs into a variety of interfaces (like a standard stereo system) and applications can be distributed and maintained more simply than we have right now. So, an XBox-like (733 Mhz Celeron) device which is exceedingly basic, yet has more than enough power to run most applications available is essentially a throw-away "brick". It costs at current market rates about $200 (though MS is actually taking a hit up front as their income is actually derived from software and licensing). In a corporate network shop, it would require, of course, configuration, security etc to be built in the firmware. In any event, wouldn't it be nice if an applications like Office could be ported to that we wouldn't have to have an enormous network effort to properly distribute apps or stuff like that? Yes, you can get a similar setup through Dell and other vendors but the backend of maintenence once the PC is setup is still there. All I'm saying is the hardware to OS interface needs to be so simplified that there's the literal fire and forget effect when one pushes the power button. Right now, it's power on, wait 30 seconds to a minute, logon, search for your app, connect to your share, etc. Then if the box is messed up, the net admin has to look and see what's going on, check drivers, check virus updates, etc. Now in a big shop, maybe that's not such a big deal; there's usually enough support to back the user up. But in the majority of small shops (15-30 users) there may not be a network guy. There may be a strong power user but usually that person is not a dedicated PC mechanic. Now, for bus designs, it just seems to me that we shouldn't be satisfied with what the industry wants to give us as it has locked us into the 3-4 year cycle of buying replacement gear. If it's not because of more "gaming" CPU cycles (which is actually more video driven that CPU driven) than it's because motherboard hardware is so cheap quality nowadays, that natural gear attrition puts us into the cycle. The US is the greatest user of PCs in the world and has the most to lose by allowing non-US builders to dictate what PC designs are going to be in the future. Maybe elephant Intel doesn't really care because of their market share but I suspect if others start penetrating into non-PC markets with non-PC looking gear that actually is PC gear, Intel will start looking over their shoulder more. It won't be too long from now when non-US CPU makers start getting better at their jobs and we as consumers should be more demanding of US manufacturers. It's not enough that products be merely inexpensive; that sort of stuff can be gotten overseas already. If we want to have the US as leading edge producers, we need to be leading edge consumers and not let US manufacturers off the hook. By accepting without reservation, that the "industry" should be satisfied with what's available because of cost and familiarity is why Japan is rules the consumer technology world. Leave the basic original PC design to Taiwan and China; let's build something better! And as for horsepower on computers, if people were satisfied with the lastest and greatest than we ought to be on 486DX-100s as I recall Wordperfect, Lotus, and Client Access for DOS ran great on that processor!

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PC Shopping Nightmare

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boomer400, I think what you are saying is that you want the power, speed and comfort of a Mercedes but with only the complexity of a Schwinn 3-speed bicycle. The bottom line is this: It ain't gonna happen. PCs are, by nature, complex machines and will never be as simple to use as a telephone. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "boomer400" wrote in message news:6b088421.11@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Actually I think that's what I was trying to infer; apparently I wasn't clear enough though. My thought was that rather than buying the current PC type of hardware that needs a lot of OS maintenance, application maintenance, security maintenance, network maintenance etc. which is where most of our costs occur, wouldn't it be nice to have a "brick" where it plugs into a variety of interfaces (like a standard stereo system) and applications can be distributed and maintained more simply than we have right now. So, an XBox-like (733 Mhz Celeron) device which is exceedingly basic, yet has more than enough power to run most applications available is essentially a throw-away "brick". It costs at current market rates about $200 (though MS is actually taking a hit up front as their income is actually derived from software and licensing). > In a corporate network shop, it would require, of course, configuration, security etc to be built in the firmware. In any event, wouldn't it be nice if an applications like Office could be ported to that we wouldn't have to have an enormous network effort to properly distribute apps or stuff like that? Yes, you can get a similar setup through Dell and other vendors but the backend of maintenence once the PC is setup is still there. All I'm saying is the hardware to OS interface needs to be so simplified that there's the literal fire and forget effect when one pushes the power button. Right now, it's power on, wait 30 seconds to a minute, logon, search for your app, connect to your share, etc. Then if the box is messed up, the net admin has to look and see what's going on, check drivers, check virus updates, etc. Now in a big shop, maybe that's not such a big deal; there's usually enough support to back the user up. But in the majority of small shops (15-30 users) there may not be a network guy. There may be a strong power user but usually that person is not a dedicated PC mechanic. > Now, for bus designs, it just seems to me that we shouldn't be satisfied with what the industry wants to give us as it has locked us into the 3-4 year cycle of buying replacement gear. If it's not because of more "gaming" CPU cycles (which is actually more video driven that CPU driven) than it's because motherboard hardware is so cheap quality nowadays, that natural gear attrition puts us into the cycle. The US is the greatest user of PCs in the world and has the most to lose by allowing non-US builders to dictate what PC designs are going to be in the future. Maybe elephant Intel doesn't really care because of their market share but I suspect if others start penetrating into non-PC markets with non-PC looking gear that actually is PC gear, Intel will start looking over their shoulder more. It won't be too long from now when non-US CPU makers start getting better at their jobs and we as consumers should be more demanding of US manufacturers. It's not enough that products be merely inexpensive; that sort of stuff can be gotten overseas already. If we want to have the US as leading edge producers, we need to be leading edge consumers and not let US manufacturers off the hook. By accepting without reservation, that the "industry" should be satisfied with what's available because of cost and familiarity is why Japan is rules the consumer technology world. Leave the basic original PC design to Taiwan and China; let's build something better! > And as for horsepower on computers, if people were satisfied with the lastest and greatest than we ought to be on 486DX-100s as I recall Wordperfect, Lotus, and Client Access for DOS ran great on that processor!

[J.Klebanoff]

PC Shopping Nightmare

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Chuck said:

I think what you are saying is that you want the power, speed and comfort of a Mercedes but with only the complexity of a Schwinn 3-speed bicycle.

I can't speak for boomer400, but for myself, a Schwinn 3-speed bicycle is way too complex. I was thinking of something along the lines of a toaster. And, oh, by the way, if it could be sold at a price point about the same as a toaster, that would be a very good thing too. I know, I know, it isn't going to happen in my lifetime, but I can dream can't I?