Good Versus Evil

[J.Klebanoff]

Good Versus Evil

You seem to me to be a born worrier

Guilty. Worrying is a part of me. The thing that keeps me going.

You get upset because I don't have the answers

Joe, I don't think that you read what I wrote. I did not say that I was upset that you don't have the answers. I said quite the opposite: that you [in a holier-than-thou tone of voice (as far as it can come through in a written medium)] were talking as if you did and that I should just accept that.

If I find that some folks in a district in Florida are misrepresenting vote counts, I arrest them and throw them in jail.

Absolutely, bang on. I agree with you. So, did anyone misrepresent the vote counts? Some people say they did. Some people say that they didn't. I don't know which is right. Do you? Don't bother answering that, it was a rhetorical question. Fortunately, I think that we are merging to a common, somewhat agreed upon answer. And you put it well:

... it depends ... But I trust that a democratic society will make the right choices.

This conversation got off discussing why society has to arm itself to protect itself against the time when democracy doesn't produce a just result (not something I agreed with). But, I think that democracy, flawed though our implementations of it may be, is the best we've got. And, while I don't think that it always does produce a just result, we're going to have to accept it. But that doesn't mean that we should stop talking about its injustices, just that we have to make sure that we don't blow each other up while doing so. As Winston Churchill said:

"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried."

[J.Pluta]

Good Versus Evil

Joe, I don't think that you read what I wrote. I did not say that I was upset that you don't have the answers. I said quite the opposite: that you [in a holier-than-thou tone of voice (as far as it can come through in a written medium)] were talking as if you did and that I should just accept that. Actually, I got involved because ctibodoe said that guns were needed for Americans to establish their freedoms and are needed now to protect them. You countered [in a holier-than-thou tone of voice (as far as it can come through in a written medium)] that by gosh, Canada didn't need guns, so why should anyone else? So since it's clear that we're both self-anointed keepers of the Truth, and this horse is beaten beyond recognition, I think we can let it lie. Joe

[J.Klebanoff]

Good Versus Evil

You countered [in a holier-than-thou tone of voice (as far as it can come through in a written medium)] that by gosh, Canada didn't need guns, so why should anyone else?

Geez Joe, I really thought that we had reached the end of this conversation, but I can't let that go. SHOW ME where I said anything close to "by gosh, Canada didn't need guns, so why should anyone else?". If I did, I misspoke and I apologize. I think there is a lot wrong (and a lot right) with Canada. Canada has guns. Too many in my opinion, but that's just my opinion. There were wars and rebellions in Canada, and, before that, in what became Canada; the Riel Rebellion and the French/English battle on the Plains of Abraham are just two examples. I don't want to hold Canada up as a model for anybody. What we were talking about were issues in general and what would be right or wrong for any country anywhere--the U.S., Canada, or any other country. I've reached the end of what I have to say about this topic. If you want to respond to this posting to say that you have too, so that you can have the last word, I don't have a problem with that. I won't respond unless you ask me a question or write something intended to provoke a response from me.

[J.Pluta]

Good Versus Evil

SHOW ME where I said anything close to "by gosh, Canada didn't need guns, so why should anyone else?". Maybe you just don't remember what you type, eh? "ctibodoe: Its in the history books, England didn't give us our freedom, and an unarmed population won't keep it. Joel: That's true, but Canada achieved its freedom without a revolution. It took almost 100 more years than the US, but Canada is now an independent country, with the Queen as just a figurehead. And Ghandi achieved quite a bit in India through peaceful civil disobedience." I read this to say: "Canada achieved independence without revolution (i.e., without guns) and so too could the American Revolution have occurred without guns." Did I misread it? Because that's EXACTLY what I responded to in my VERY FIRST post: "Joel, are you by any chance suggesting that the leaders of the American Revolution should NOT have declared independence?" That's the only reason I got into this silliness in the first place: because ctibodoe was exactly right in that the Framers put in the 2nd Amendment to make sure we would always be armed against enemies both within and without. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Good Versus Evil

This has been great. How do I know when its time? Funny you brought up that 'holier than thou line' in a name calling way. Is there anything holy in your life? Just curious. I have some holy in my life( which only counts in this disscusion to alert you that my statements and actions are based on beliefs that go back aways), but I'll let God decide who is holier or if it counts. But, I know when things are not right in my world when my conscience says so based on my beliefs, which are in line with the founders of my country (who wanted me to have a way to defend myself against their replacements should the need ever arise).............so I think I will know when its time to pass up the balot box, which probably won't exist at that time, to take a different approach to getting my government back on track.

[dacust]

Good Versus Evil

Joel, Excelent post. I'm going to point out one thing that I kinda disagree with, but it's the only thing I spotted in the entire post... I agree that there are always the Timothy McVeigh's, but for the people like that to succede, the majority of the US has to get behind them and agree with them. So, the Timothy McVeighs of the country are not nearly as dangerous as it might seem. The majority of people in this country would join a movement against that type of behavior. -dan

[J.Klebanoff]

Good Versus Evil

ctibodoe, yes I too have appreciated this exchange of free speech.

Funny you brought up that 'holier than thou line' in a name calling way. Is there anything holy in your life? Just curious.

Because the system puts responses at the end of a branch in the forum tree and the thread is getting so long that it is hard to count all of the ">"s showing the path, it's hard to tell who you were asking that question of, but since I was the first to use the phrase "holier-that-thou", I'll assume that it was me. First let me say that I probably shouldn't have said that. I was still a little bit upset about being referred to, in a serious conversation, as a "nutball" (it seems I need to lighten up), and I was probably overreacting to that. As to your question, "is there anything holy in my life?" -- boy, you really are a s**t-disturber, aren't you? That could really go off on an even longer and more passionate tangent, couldn't it? ... But, since you asked, yes there are some things that are holy in my life: the books of Douglas Adams, the movie Casablanca, and the early films of Woody Allen. I also have three friends and some relatives that I cherish very much, but if I put them in the holy list you might think that I was serious, and I really don't have time to go there right now. Besides, they don't pay me for writing in these forums.

[Guest.Visitor]

Good Versus Evil

Disturber? Who, me? You might avoid words like holy, guns, nutball, entitlement, the 'U.N.', personal responsibility, punishment, liberal, conservative, democrat, republican, race, bigotry, sex, discrimination, lawsuit, gay (unless you are singing Fred Flintsone song), sexual lifestyle, what is the definition of marriage, ACLU, Boy Scouts (a personal favorite), Creation, darwin, evolution, wetlands, homeowners insurance for waterfront property, the price of gasoline last year, the price of diesel this year, right, wrong, good, evil..... ah, just a few of my favorite things. I enjoyed it, I do disagree with one other thing. When we discover we disagree....its time to start talking. We might never sway each other, but someone else might learn something, thats why its usually months between postings for me.

[J.Klebanoff]

Good Versus Evil

ctibodoe said

You might avoid words like holy, guns, nutball, entitlement, the 'U.N.', personal responsibility, punishment, liberal, conservative, democrat, republican, race, bigotry, sex, discrimination, lawsuit, gay (unless you are singing Fred Flintsone song), sexual lifestyle, what is the definition of marriage, ACLU, Boy Scouts (a personal favorite), Creation, darwin, evolution, wetlands, homeowners insurance for waterfront property, the price of gasoline last year, the price of diesel this year, right, wrong, good, evil.....

Thanks. I'll try to keep that in mind when I write in the future. Is there an online database of those words and phrases somewhere that I can access through the Web, just to be on the safe side? It's not always easy to find these postings quickly when you want them.

... When we discover we disagree....its time to start talking. We might never sway each other, but someone else might learn something ...

Hallelujah brother. Ooops ... that was probably one of your words. Damn. Darn, there I go again.

[dacust]

Good Versus Evil

Joel, There IS a printed version. It's Webster's. Unabridged, that is. The on-line ones are woefully inadequate as they leave out thousands of potentially inflammatory words. -dan

[Guest.Visitor]

Good Versus Evil

First, there WAS no "duly elected government" over the colonies. The whole taxation without representation thing was the crux of that particular situation. Does it matter that England, in essence, agreed to the American Colonial request for representation BEFORE the revolution began? Of course poor communication at the time made it easy to pursue a particular course of action by those who wanted independence. Just don't respond too quickly to the peace overtures.

[Guest.Visitor]

Good Versus Evil

Don't know for sure, but I think England was just a cruel master, and that is where I think the problem was. And I think, (to borrow from the cold war) that the future USA was the first dominoe belonging to England to fall, but instead of falling to another cruel master, we fell to freedom, earned by the blood of our forefathers or foretreaders. And the rest of England's dominoes just naturally fell when the handwriting was on the wall (not without more blood, but inevitable). Was the USA the first Dominoe in not only England's but France's and and who know who else colonial holdings?

[M.Savino]

Good Versus Evil

Joel, I think there's a lot of misplaced Paranoia in your rantings about, RFID, Gun Control and Tyrannical Regimes. Stick to the issues that Really threaten Civilization.... Like Fluoridated Water, Space Aliens, Tidal Friction and oh yeah, Public Education. BTW: Cosmic Radiation has declined to acceptable levels. So it's OK to take the Collander off your Head; at least while you're Indoors. (I have, although as a precaution, I continue to line my Hats with Tin Foil) Mike ;-)

[J.Klebanoff]

Good Versus Evil

Mike said:

Stick to the issues that Really threaten Civilization.... Like Fluoridated Water, Space Aliens, Tidal Friction and oh yeah, Public Education.

Mike, I think that it's a mistake to include space aliens on your list. They promised me--absolutely promised me--that they've come in peace.

[M.Savino]

Good Versus Evil

So They Know, We Know, Their Here !! Damn..... Where's that Collander ??