Robot Soldiers

[MCWebsite.Staff]

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[BT4]

Robot Soldiers

** This thread discusses the article: Robot Soldiers **
SOME writers have so confounded society with government, as to leave little or no distinction between them; whereas they are not only different, but have different origins. Society is produced by our wants, and government by wickedness; the former promotes our happiness positively by uniting our affections, the latter negatively by restraining our vices. The one encourages intercourse, the other creates distinctions. The first is a patron, the last a punisher. Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer. -- Thomas Paine, Common Sense, 1776

[bharder@nlrha.ab.ca]

Robot Soldiers

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"I won't always agree with their assessment of that balance, but who am I to judge these things?" Joel, Joel, Joel! You are a citizen in a democracy, you have a perfect right to judge these things. Furthermore, you paid for the government (or rather, your portion of it), you paid for the military (same qualifier), you paid for the foreign service/diplomatic corps, and so on down the line. Government probably has more information than the average citizen, most of the time. On the other hand, government has self-interest at play. You don't control the government, even at election time (I mean individually), but you have a voice and you have a vote. Not that this is even a requirement, but it's also obvious that you have an education, are literate, and your opinion is informed and worldly.

[maldonadoj]

Robot Soldiers

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Joel is not a citizen of the democracy of which he criticizes. He is a foreigner (Canadian) writing about a country that his country would not help in a war. He may prefer that an oil rich country develop robot soldiers first. Or at least give employment to foreign programmers to try to develop the software for defense or offensive hardware. I would suggest he criticize his own government practices.

[Guest.Visitor]

Robot Soldiers

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Thanks Joel, for feeding my fire. Its already been stated by another, that criticising someone else's democracy that provides your defense, and as Mr Pluta pointed out made your country's road to semi-quasi democracy easier, just ain't nice. Let's pretend the USA would follow Canada's lead for awhile...how long do you think you would be a practicing Canadian? Are you ready to learn to speak Chinese? or do you think they would let any of us live? If the USA hadn't dropped a few nukes, do you thing 'they' wouldn't have? Press on with them robots and every other weapon any of you can think of. The reason that I am not Canadian today, is that both of my parents' ancestors thought like good future Canadians, and sat on the sidelines while the British and the French tossed around weapons, and the only reason I am here is that my ancestors didn't die being deported out of Nova Scotia like cattle and slaves in the holds of ships that were compartmentized where they couldn't even sit up and, and, and....I guess they were good Canadians and didn't even know it. The USA was born in blood and the only way it will stay the USA is to build whatever is necesarry to defend the blood of those who will sit on the sidelines, wondering if they have a right to make a decision, and criticising the very people and objects who provide them the freedom to complain about everything without being eliminated by those they champion. PS, Go my son and keep those F15's flying in Canada's Queen's country. He is there now and I was there 30 years ago to act as a human shield to slow down the Soviet Union. Thank God, for our inalienable rights and those who believe they are worth fighting for the living and the yet unborn and also those who some won't give the decency of acknowledgement that they are anything but human tissue.

[Guest.Visitor]

Robot Soldiers

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Even the countries we are currently fighting know that our weakness is our people. If we send robots in to battle them, do you really think they would stick around long enough to battle the robots? No they are going to find other ways to kill our people especially untrained civilians because they are easy targets, hmm, 9/11. Human life is what we truly value. Even a "Mech Warrior" or human in heavy armor and hydraulic assist to carry his tank type weapon is more likely to be fought directly, because of the human factor! I am against pure robots in Battle. P.S. Has anybody else noticed that Joel's commentary is in a technical publication, discusses a technical concern and yet the "Reader's Opinions" immediately become political?

[BT4]

Robot Soldiers

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Joel uses the technology of robotics as a spring board to raise a moral delimma, then questions the possible politcal motivations that generate the situation; ergo the issue is not technology, but politics. Technology may be used to wage war, raising issues about the moral imperative for military action (pro, or con) is not.

[dacust]

Robot Soldiers

** This thread discusses the article: Robot Soldiers **
I'm not going to quote other peoples posts here, but you can read back and probably guess as to what comments I am responding to. First, I don't respond to Joel as if what Canada does is all his fault, so whether Canada helped us in the war or not is not a factor for me in my response to Joel. Second, I didn't take his comentary as being political, but more as an observation on technology. Third, I took what he said as being true no matter what country it is. The US happens to be big enough and advanced enough to be the closest to actually being able to do some of what he suggests. But if Canada was in that position, I'm sure they would do it as well. Last, I didn't feel Joel was attacking me personally, or the USA as a whole. My take is that people that take it that way are being overly sensitive. In all of Joels posts/articals/rants I think he has been objective and fair about his comments on the US and Canada. Keep it up, Joel. -dan

[J.Klebanoff]

Robot Soldiers

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Brian said:

Joel, Joel, Joel! You are a citizen in a democracy, you have a perfect right to judge these things.

Yes, as a citizen in a democracy, I have a perfect right to judge. But having the right gives me neither the knowledge nor the wisdom necessary to judge wisely. There are people who have spent their lives seeking out the facts and studying and analyzing these issues. While I can and should put in my two cents worth, there are some people capable of putting in two hundred dollars worth for each of my two cents worth. My purpose in these tirades is to point out some of the weirdness and/or silliness that I, with my weird perspective on life, see in some of our technologies and our use of them; and, much more importantly, to try to provide a small bit of humor for my readers. I'll leave the really big thinking to others -- such as some of the other posters in this forum.

[J.Klebanoff]

Robot Soldiers

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Thanks Dan, Some of my tirades, including this one, have touched on some points that can be considered political, but minor comments in my tirades tend to get blown way out of proportion in these forums. As to my feelings toward America, I've said it in postings to other articles' forums and I'll say it again here: I think that the founding principles of America are second to none. I have many friends, relatives, clients and colleagues in America who I greatly like and respect. I think that America is one of the truly great countries of the world. Does all of that mean that I agree with absolutely everything that absolutely every American administration does, no I don't. I'd be terribly surprised if anyone who posts or lurks here does agree with everything every administration does. As to my criticizing Canada, I think that there are a lot of things that the Canadian government does wrong. And, if they ever gets off their butts and do anything that is significant enough to make one bit of difference in the broader global perspective, and it is somehow related to technology, then maybe I will make a tirade topic out of it. Hmm, maybe I just did criticize them. That's the problem with writing these columns and living in Canada. Canada is not big or important enough to do much that makes a difference to anyone outside of Canada. America, on the other hand, is big enough and powerful enough that much of what it does has significance outside its borders. That is neither a good thing nor a bad thing. It just is.

[Guest.Visitor]

Robot Soldiers

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No matter what side of politics you are on, I can respect that. I reponded because I read a political missive, sermon, and I am mad as hell, and I don't have to take it anymore. I am sick and tired of political sermons buried in my kids cartoons, my nightly TV entertainment,a movie that I pay for to escape reality,and my technical journals. If it smells like politics, tastes like politics, then its politics. So most things are political, go figure. The purpose of buried politics is to influence by acceptance. Political satire is not comedy, its not to get a laugh, its to push its agenda. But, don't stop. Free speech flows two ways, at least, where I'm from.

[Guest.Visitor]

Robot Soldiers

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The article stops short of the obvious solution...the robot reserves. Since we wouldn't need them for combat most of the time, they should also be able to clean, cook, and shop for us when they have not been called up. Then there would be a cost to activating the robot reserves...you would have to clean, cook, and shop for yourselves for the duration...and hope that your robot is not a casualty. We may be less likely to get involved in a conflict than ever before!

[punchbowl99]

Robot Soldiers

** This thread discusses the article: Robot Soldiers **
I think you have found the perfect solution John. You should send your idea on to the Pentagon.

[J.Klebanoff]

Robot Soldiers

** This thread discusses the article: Robot Soldiers **
John said,

they should also be able to clean, cook, and shop for us when they have not been called up

Now your talking. Clean, cook and shop ... now that's a robot I can really get behind!

[boomer400]

Robot Soldiers

** This thread discusses the article: Robot Soldiers **
This is really the realm of the Pentagon deskdrivers who would like to see a "surgical" style war process. It's a holdover from the McNamara days of "efficient" DOD systems. A lot of it is based on Operational Research theorizing and gaming systems so it's simply not a reality possible yet. However, it is true that the battlefield systems are getting more integrated electronically than ever before. Even down to the tactical platoon level we are starting to see computerization. The problem is that the military is not very good at low-level to high-level technology transfers. It's mostly high-level to low-level; that's why things like hightech gadgetry in large systems like bombers or subs get built pretty easily but we don't have armor or GPS packages for transport trucks. You can bet that robot warriors will never work in the field except in isolated instances. If a robot loses some gear or gets damaged are we going to have a combat repair/replacement factory near by? And who builds and maintains that infrastructure? Or do you just abandon stuff? The amount of energy required just doesn't make sense. It's just more wishful BS about how hightech will get people out of jams they wouldn't be in if they thought a little long range.