The iSeries: The Once and Future King

[D.Kenzie]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Joe wrote: "Let's see if I can explain this. Even with your firewall, port 80 of your iSeries is open to the Internet (through the firewall), and thus is available for a DoS attack." I write: "Not true. The firewall detects the Dos attacks before they get to the server". Joe wrote: "Unacceptable. On challenge, either back up your point or retract it. I'm saying you are absolutely wrong, and guilty of spreading FUD. " I write: "Again, your opinion. One of the major difficulties we've had with developing our Java products is with inconsistencies in JVM implementations. Most of those have been with user interface issues, such as SWING, but nevertheless this is an inherent problem with Java." Joe wrote: "Actually, based on your comments (such as the completely misleading comments about running on a model 270, or the incorrect statement that JVMs run very differently on different platforms), it's clear to me that you don't have a lot of Java experience, especially on the iSeries. If you are indeed selling Java expertise, I assume others in your company are better informed. " I write: "Yes, I mentioned in an earlier post that others in my company are better informed with regards to Java. That's what I pay them for. I believe I also apologized for my inaccuracy regarding the model 270 running WebSphere - although I stand by my point that WebSphere Express is a far cry from WebSphere full blown - which you never addressed. " Joe wrote: "I've been quite careful to avoid mentioning PSC/400 or what it does, but if you keep complaining about it, I'll keep mentioning it." I write: "No, you haven't It's at the bottom of every article you write, and clearly your interest in debating this subject so vigorously is tied to your business interests in it. But as I wrote before, it's ok to compete! Let's just compete fairly- ie don't take advantage of your position to promote your own interests, business or otherwise. As for Bob Cozzi, or others, I'm not convinced arguing from the perspective of how others conduct themselves is particularly satisfying to me. " Joe wrote: "I've never seen a single article published by you that didn't have "WebSmart" in it. " I write: "Well - I'm flattered! Sounds like you have read some of my stuff! But not my earlier work on limits file processing (ca 1985- News/38). I'd like to write more on industry topics, but I see it as conflicting with my business interests, which is why my more recent articles are clearly labeled as Vendor articles. " Joe wrote: "I do not have enough information to appropriately judge the technology of your tool." I write: "Fair enough. I'd like you to take a closer look at our offering, with an open mind. Feel free to download and try it for 30 days." Joe wrote: "Oh please. "Solutions provided by vendors such as BCD." I suppose you meant their Mahjongg package. " I write: "I was careful to avoid using our product name, even though you and Chuck had discussed it at considerable length in earlier posts." Regards, Duncan

[D.Kenzie]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Joe quoted from me: " It's simply that you asserted that your approach is the best, and I don't agree with that, for the technical reasons I've outlined, and based on personal experience. " and Joe wrote: "I've never even talked about my product. I'm talking about technology. It's clear that you are fundamentally incapable of distinguishing between product and technology, and also that you are unable to converse without derogatory nit-picking." I write: "I did not make myself clear. In the passage you quote from me, I mention the term 'your approach'. I did not mean your product- I meant the technology you have been promoting. I thought I'd clarify this as it wasn't my intention to be nit-picking. It's clear we will not reach agreement on this, though. You say JSP + RPG backend logic is superior to RPG CGI. I say ILE CGI (making my distinction versus "RPG CGI" , which has yet to be acknowledged) is equal to the task - and that there are times when, based on business needs, either solution will do. And, based on my 28 years experience in the business, I believe ILE CGI is the best solution for most iSeries shops - large or small." Joe wrote: "And ad I've said at least five different times, this is not about business decisions. There are times when business requirements make an abacus the best choice" I write: "Well, I'd be interested to see when you'd propose an abacus to a prospect. I don't see the legitimacy of this argument." Joe wrote: "Anyway, I sense we've reached the point of diminishing returns. You were wrong about WebSphere Express, you were wrong about the JVMs, you bring in Amazon when we're talking about RPG-CGI, you never answered my quetions on session handling such as how you keep files open (and then bizarrely you say that I didn't answer yours). This has become a monumental waste of time, and I doubt it's helping any readers, so I can sign out now." I write: "To asnwer your point about file opens, which I did address briefly in an earlier post- it depends on application design. For example, you can easily run initial routines that open the files in any given server job just once. Subsequent page calls won't require reopening them. You may have 5 to 10 jobs with all the files open, but this is really no different than a technique often used by ERP applications in the green-screen world, when a user signs on. And, remember, I'm talking 5 - 10 jobs to serve hundreds of users, not like 5250 sessions, where each user requires a job. I suspect, like Chuck, this has been very helpful to a lot of readers. I'll sign off now too. Thanks for the lively discussion - hope we get to meet some time at COMMON. " Regards, Duncan

[charles400]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

I'm not whining about our one poorly educated rep. I'm whining about IBM. My experience is obviously anecdotal, but it shows how far they have let the platform slide when their own people don't know it. This new campaign of theirs is fine for now, but next year when they rotate out the division head (again) the focus will change. I think Soltis said it best when he said this platform needs a real evangalist, like Ellison is to Oracle, Gates is to Microsoft, etc. There just isn't any sustained focus at IBM. Not on this platform.

[J.Pluta]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Again, your opinion. One of the major difficulties we've had with developing our Java products is with inconsistencies in JVM implementations. Most of those have been with user interface issues, such as SWING, but nevertheless this is an inherent problem with Java. You realize that your arguments grow more tenuous as time goes on, right? First you say Java is bad for web applications because it's inconsistent, and now you're backtracking to say that it's only inconsistent for thick clients. Which is it? If it's bad for thick clients only, then your entire original argument was FUD. If, however, you insist that even the non-Swing components of the JVM are inconsistent, then I demand that you provide proof of a substantive JVM discrepancy between the JVM in Sun's JDK1.4 and IBM's. Publish the code, and the inconsistency that occurs. To be honest, I don't think you can actually find such an issue in Swing, either, but since I know you won't find one in the core JVM, feel free to post one of the thick client "inconsistencies" you've found. Given the rest of the conversations, I'm relatively certain it will be your misunderstanding, not a problem with Java. although I stand by my point that WebSphere Express is a far cry from WebSphere full blown - which you never addressed Yes I did. I said that plenty of companies run WebSphere Express. Feel free to call IBM and find out how many clients they have using WebSphere Express. Let me make sure I have an accurate statement for my next article: "Duncan Kenzie, President of ExcelSystems, says WebSphere Express is inadequate to run mission critical business systems." No, you haven't It's at the bottom of every article you write, and clearly your interest in debating this subject so vigorously is tied to your business interests in it. We're going to introduce a new term for you: it's called a "bio", and it's one of the perks of being a regular columnist. Take a peek at other columnists and see what they have on theirs, although what my bio has to do with my posts in this forum is sort of unclear to me. Then again, Dunc, it seems you see conspiracy and competition everywhere... BOO! But as I wrote before, it's ok to compete! Let's just compete fairly- ie don't take advantage of your position to promote your own interests, business or otherwise. I don't "take advantage" of anything. I report facts. I talk to sources inside IBM and throughout the community. I have regular conversations with experts in the field. I don't spread rumors about imagined "inconsistencies" in Java, or foment unsupported FUD about how businesses cannot run on WebSphere Express. I report why I believe JSP Model II is architecturally superior to RPG-CGI, and I back it up with fact after fact. As for Bob Cozzi, or others, I'm not convinced arguing from the perspective of how others conduct themselves is particularly satisfying to me. (LAUGHING!) And guess what, Duncan? I don't particularly care what is satisfying to you! So I guess we're about even on that score. Joe

[David Abramowitz]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Joe Pluta wrote: Feel free to call IBM and find out how many clients they have using WebSphere Express. IBM recently admitted what most of us knew for a long time: That IBM had lost track of their customers. IBM does not know how many AS400 customers they still have. I seriously doubt that they have any valid numbers on Websphere Express, and far less on how many that have the product are actually using it. Dave

[J.Pluta]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

"I seriously doubt..." Did you ask? I'm sure they have a better number than "none", which is what Mr. Kenzie is implying, David. But I'm pretty sick of the negativity that this entire conversation has taken and how it has become primarily a plank for FUD and posturing, especially since the original article was based on such positive news. It's partially my fault; I took the bait from some people when I should have known better. But I won't do that again. Instead, I'm going to get some answers from IBM. It will make for interesting reading in my next WebSphere column. Joe

[R.Daugherty]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Your whole Java thing is silly. The inconsistency is between different versions to deal with, not with an "implementation". I wasn't going to bring it up, but given your most recent posts, I'm going to say that you should be ashamed for bashing me for even mentioning using a third party product as "shilling" for the company, a company I didn't even have contact with, and then go on to do nothing but yourself for the next four years. It's good to hear about different technologies, but let's face it, the knowledgeable people have products and books and seminars. I for one welcome our product overlords. rd

[David Abramowitz]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Joe Pluta asked: Did you ask? Not recently. But the answer is in the affirmative. IBM's public admissions on this topic come within the last 12 months. Dave

[J.Pluta]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Yeah, but we're not trying to get an exact count here, David. We're just trying to see if there are companies running WebSphere Express for their primary web application server, or whether Mr. Kenzie's is correct in his assertiom that WebSphere Express is inadequate in a business environment. It only takes a few examples of WASX in production to disprove his claim. I don't think IBM was saying that they have no idea where any iSeries is, or what is running on it. They have consulting gigs and so on, and I'm sure that a lot of them are WebSphere. How many are on the iSeries and how many are on WASX is up in the air, but I'll do some asking and I bet I can find a few. Joe

[J.Pluta]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

As it turns out, I've already gotten one response from an ISV: "We use it and have for a long time. I think WAS Express is a great product and with 6.0 it just gets better. We also sell an iSeries Helpdesk product called ExpressDesk that is largely built on WAS Express. We do not force our customers to run it on WAS Express or on iSeries, but the vast majority do so." They go on to say: "To say WAS Express is not production-ready is libelous." My sentiments exactly. Joe

[D.Kenzie]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Joe, I did not say that WASX is inadequate in a business environment. I said it does not scale well. What is the point in having the full-blown version of Websphere if all you need is WASX. I also said you cannot run the full-blown WebSphere on a small machine, while you CAN run scaleable CGI applications on a small machine, and support large numbers of transactions, without having to upgrade to massive new hardware and replace WASX with WebSphere. Duncan

[D.Kenzie]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Joe, Do you know who that vendor is? They happen to be one of the biggest overseas distributors of WebSmart ! Go figure! Duncan

[Guest.Visitor]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Joe, Ask those that don't have their self interest at heart about Websphere Express. Do you think anyone basing their livelihood upon Webshpere to say otherwise? Ask the president of Coca Cola which cola he drinks. I'd be willing to bet it ain't Pepsi. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" wrote in message news:6b229b3b.106@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > As it turns out, I've already gotten one response from an ISV: > > "We use it and have for a long time. I think WAS Express is a great > product and with 6.0 it just gets better. > > We also sell an iSeries Helpdesk product called ExpressDesk that is > largely built on WAS Express. We do not force our customers to run it on > WAS Express or on iSeries, but the vast majority do so." > > They go on to say: > > "To say WAS Express is not production-ready is libelous." > > My sentiments exactly. > > Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

My conversations with "normal" end users, not ISVs of Wasx products, is that Webshpere is a novelty. Many have thought about it, many have even tried it but many of those never went any further. Maybe they use the phone book application but the serious users of Webshpere are either larger shops or ISVs. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[J.Pluta]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

No, Duncan, you said: "I also doubt that any enterprise would be willing to run their mission-critical businesses on WebSphere Express- but that's possibly just my ignorance." Now you're saying it doesn't scale well. What do you mean by that? What sort of facts do you have that say WebSphere Express doesn't scale well? Also, the person who said it doesn't force their users to use WebSphere Express or even run their product on the iSeries (an advantage of JSP Model II), yet still most do. So any attempts at painting this as tainted testimony are ignorant of the facts. Joe