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The New RPG Developer

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  • #16
    The New RPG Developer

    ** This thread discusses the article: The New RPG Developer **
    I honestly appreciate the expression of your personal experiences. And I may share some of your experiences as well. As I said in the article above, I'm not taking shots at the promoters of other programming languages or techniques, though I am getting a bit tired of hearing that RPG is dead! (What was W.C. Fields' comment about "Rumors of my death..."? But the question is not "What is wrong with RPG?" and its practitioners nor "How do we get our businesses out of RPG?" The question here, in this newsletter, is "What's RIGHT with RPG!" and "How can we use it more efficiently?" Or, perhaps better asked: "Do I need a rocket ship to shop at the 7-11 when my Cadillac gets me there efficiently and comfortably?" And the answer is "Nothing! But did you know that you could do it faster and more efficiently when you...." Of course no one has ever said that we'll achieve inter-galactic space travel in any of current four-wheeled vehicles (Not the Java-mobile, nor the C#-mobile!) But once we get to Planet X -- by whatever means -- wouldn't it be nice to tool around and explore in a great vehicle like a Cadillac? And in the meantime, ain't it great to have such a large trunk, adequate horse-power, good gas-mileage, air conditioning and integrated GPS as we're pressing cross-country down the highway? RPG on the System i is like that Cadillac, but what's missing too often these days are "licensed drivers" who know MORE than the basic rules of the road. What we're aiming to do with this newsletter is to bring the combined skills of the best instructors to your door. (Don't worry! We'll not be conducting driver's tests anytime soon!) In a sense, our mission is to let them run you through the race course at Sears Point. (Fasten your seat belts, but don't worry about the crash helmet!) So who are these "expert race drivers?" Well, honestly, Mario Andretti is retired now, making wine down the street where I live in the Napa Valley! (But anyway he told me he gave up his career writing coding subfiles long before he took up racing. And he does still maintain a small fleet of Cadillacs for the wine auctions!) Should I reveal their identities now, these RPG Experts? Though I'm aching to tell you (honestly), I would not be doing them justice to merely drop their names here. I want to take the time to really introduce them to you next time around in the New RPG Developer. Whatever you RPG skill-levels may be, I'll wager that you'll end up learning something useful in your day-to-day. And in the process, feel free to ask questions or raise concerns. So JavaBoy, thanks for your comments. I know you have a long history of working in RPG too, and I always sincerely appreciate your comments. I hope you stay-tuned and continue to offer your valuable insights. In fact, I'd like to read more of them, so keep them coming. Best, Tom

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    • #17
      The New RPG Developer

      ** This thread discusses the article: The New RPG Developer **
      I would sure like to see a discussion beyond RPG that might include the 21st century equivalent, PHP. Probably in a separate thread but it is certainly a viable business solution and lots of folks are out there kicking the tires. It has no where near the market position on the System i as RPG. But, then again, PHP itself is only a few years old and on System i for two. RPG has been around for over three decades and Java for 10 years. I firmly believe that PHP will do to Java what RPG did to Cobol. Cobol is by no means dead, but RPG gave developers an alternative that was not nearly as verbose and was extremely powerful. I see PHP achieving a similar status. And personally, I could care less about portability. I don't write my RPG to be portable to other platforms. You can bet I won't be writing my PHP that way. Long live the 'i'! Or whatever IBM marketing wants to call it this week! :-) Bob's a great guy, but change is good. Bring on the new bartender! I'm gettin thristy! Regards,

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      • #18
        The New RPG Developer

        ** This thread discusses the article: The New RPG Developer **
        JavaBoy wrote: From my own experience and observation, this group is comprised largely of the type who has an eye on retirement. Care to give a count of these people you observed. I haven't seen it, and I've probably worked with a thousand more RPG programmers than you have. Furthermore, organizations don't change their primary IT development environment based on whether one of their developers has the moniker "JavaBoy". rd

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        • #19
          The New RPG Developer

          ** This thread discusses the article: The New RPG Developer **
          JavaBoy wrote: Again, from my observation and experience, there are too few of these coming out of our domestic colleges. Mostly, they come from off-shore... When's the last time you saw a company even hint at considering a college graduate for RPG programming? It was before 2000, I can tell you that. As for coming from off-shore, do you or anyone else who chants this mantra believe or have any clue that the off-shore programmers were experienced in RPG, or much of anything for that matter? Of course not. Please don't mix up sending work off to cheap overseas labor in hopes of saving a ton of money and on the fast lane to a corner office with who does or doesn't get hired by a company that is run by people that need to count on the end product developed. The airhead headed to the corner office isn't one of them. He just needs PowerPoint to work. rd

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          • #20
            The New RPG Developer

            ** This thread discusses the article: The New RPG Developer **
            JavaBoy wrote: Finally, management could do a better job by obtaining a clear vision (I prefer one toward being platform agnostic) about how to evolve the RPG-based applications into a browser-based world. Well, you'll need to be platform agnostic. Because you know you hear the same thing from any platform group you go to. I'm sure you didn't get far on Windows with it, and Unix Perl programmers laughed in your face, and PHP programmers said Java SUXORS or whatever it is they say, and Linux C programmers said you're not open enough, so what, that leaves the iseries with the IBM Java Daddy to run it by? How many billions did IBM spend on Java with their San Francisco Java fiasco? I've posted so many multi-hundred million dollar Java J2EE failures it got tiresome. I think it's a great cross platform client platform now though. rd

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            • #21
              The New RPG Developer

              ** This thread discusses the article: The New RPG Developer **
              Shouldn't there be a convergence of RPG and PHP? rd

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              • #22
                The New RPG Developer

                ** This thread discusses the article: The New RPG Developer **
                Ralph, How many lines of PHP code have you written? That just seems like a very strange request to me. RPG is compiled into modules. PHP is a web scripting language, interpreted on-the-fly, has no clue what a module is, runs in PASE. PHP 5 has some OOP in it. RPG does not. The syntax is different. PHP looks like a combination of Java and Javascript. And so forth... Chris

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                • #23
                  The New RPG Developer

                  ** This thread discusses the article: The New RPG Developer **
                  Why do say request? Who do you think I'm talking to? Not IBM. I don't request anything. I've had a PHP web site for several years now. You don't need to tell me anything about it. Any script can be compiled with some combination of a compiler and a conversion. rd

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                  • #24
                    The New RPG Developer

                    ** This thread discusses the article: The New RPG Developer **
                    Ralph, So, what do you mean by "a convergence of RPG and PHP?". Zend PHP already has a toolbox similar to the Java toolbox that can call *PGM programs, call commands, use data queues, etc. Chris

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                    • #25
                      The New RPG Developer

                      ** This thread discusses the article: The New RPG Developer **
                      Good question, Chris. I'll answer with code... as soon as I have an answer. rd

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                      • #26
                        The New RPG Developer

                        ** This thread discusses the article: The New RPG Developer **
                        What was W.C. Fields' comment about "Rumors of my death..."? I believe it was Sam Clemens aka Mark Twain.

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                        • #27
                          The New RPG Developer

                          ** This thread discusses the article: The New RPG Developer **
                          Mike, first you call PHP a "21st century equivalent" of RPG, and then you say that "PHP will do to Java what RPG did to COBOL." I'm not sure what your expectations are for PHP. Do you plan to write business logic in PHP? I hope not! PHP is not a particularly pretty language for business logic; it's more of a C derivative than a BASIC derivative, and it's got a lot of weird baggage. Take a look at how clumsy the PCML calling conventions are. I prefer free-form RPG to PHP any day. As for being a Java killer, I'm not sure. Java does a whole lot that PHP isn't really designed to do, including thick client code. It might be more appropriate to position PHP as an alternative to JavaServer Pages (JSP), since PHP is very much designed to be an HTML generation script language. And for that particular task, largely because of its huge existing user base, Zend's PHP implementation vaults up into contention as a browser UI option for the System i, right alongside RPG-CGI and JSP. I've got an article coming out next week on that very topic. Joe

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                          • #28
                            The New RPG Developer

                            ** This thread discusses the article: The New RPG Developer **
                            Joe, My expectations for PHP are quite high, actually. I don't think IBM and Zend would have worked as hard on the port of Core if there were not additional plans. 'Watch this space...(:-)' Plus, the way PHP has been implemented on System i facilitates the ability for Zend to tweak PHP without having to wait for an IBM Version release cycle. Truly, I never said PHP would be a Java killer. RPG did not kill COBOL, therefore I do not believe PHP will kill Java. It's not black and white. In fact, while I have not seen any statistics, I would bet there is still more COBOL out there than RPG, except on System i. Also, RPG in the early days could be compared favorably to a scripting language. RPG I & RPG II for example. (All hail the logic cycle!) Todays RPG doesn't compare closely to yesterday's. So let's pretend that Zend and the open source community might continue to develop PHP to the point where, dare I say it, it creates a compiled object? I don't know, but why not? And why not use PHP for business logic? I love being a heretic since my Dad had similar discussions with the COBOL zealots back in the 80's while he was pounding out his RPG on 96 column cards and laughing while he needed only a fraction of the time on the keypunch machine. All I'm saying is that if you need to get your stuff on the web quick, and you are a one man shop, pick your tool. There are plenty of viable contenders, including third party stuff like Lansa, et al. I still like RPG and CL will always be my first love. (especially when compared to JCL!) I think PHP is as viable as CGI or Java. But, I Never said PHP would be a Java Killer. Please do not misinterpret my words. Sheesh, now I know how it feels to be Jon Paris...Actually, I have far too much respect for Jon to compare my self to him, but you know what I mean... C'mon, more healthy discussion, please!!! Regards, Mike

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                            • #29
                              The New RPG Developer

                              ** This thread discusses the article: The New RPG Developer **
                              Jacobus asked a good question the other day, what makes a good business language, and I don't know about others but for my part unfortunately I haven't had time to try to answer. But I know for a fact that we for the most part could do just about anything in any language on any OS running roughly equivalent hardware. There are extremes we could push it to that would make some tasks too long, but we've all got real innovative in the past to get around the worst of obstacles through the years with software of all sorts. So it's true PHP could be compiled, and it's true that dynamically interrogating the data to determine if it's character or numeric is perhaps not the most robust of business solutions. On the other hand, PHP has added variable declarations, and we've done plenty of ambiguous character-numeric operations with MOVE through the years, haven't we? The answer is not syntax, it's infrastructure. A language is a communications to infrastructure, and each infrastructure usually arose in symbiosis with its language. RPG is the language to talk to a world of packed decimal, record level IO or embedded SQL, and 5250 displays. It can generate text strings that represent other worlds, like HTML web pages, but so can anything else. PHP is a language to talk to the infrastructure of the web server. It has thousands of built in functions oriented around a web server infrastructure with which to hold that conversation. Java is even more fluent, but yet another infrastructure unto itself. If one were not attempting to leverage existing logic, and in my opinion trying to extract logic to be called might as well not be called existing logic, would one create an ERP in PHP? There are one or two CRM focused systems in PHP, but last I looked portions had been written in one of them in Oracle PL-SQL "for performance reasons." But let's take that further and say, ok, a good portion of logic is IO bound, so we'll push that to the database infrastructure, and perhaps the language best suited to talk to that infrastructure. RPG could be said to be the database language of DB2/400, with record level IO and embedded SQL with equivalent DB2 extensions. The crux of PHP is that it is usually used as an embedded module in the web server, such as Apache. This makes it part and parcel of that infrastructure, running in that existing space. Is there a best of both worlds answer where the shell PHP programs make calls to ILE and/or Java programs, ideally already up and running and communicating through data or message queues but melding the power of business systems with an in space web server module? One could argue similarly for the Java web server module, Tomcat, but perhaps argue PHP is simpler, or requires less hardware, but depending on need, the cost effectiveness of Java could be compelling, which gets back to those built in functions. Personally, I would like to see us provide RPG with equivalent ILE functionality rather than as a DB2/400 database language for other crossplatform environments such as PHP or Java. I don't think there's really a question of choice until we also have thousands of functions to call upon in ILE, and in doing so provide high speed native business solutions. Unless we're doing that, we're only an equivalent alternative to many other choices with greater visibility. But if we do that, we could be more than a viable alternative, we could be a compellingly more performance effective alternative. rd

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                              • #30
                                The New RPG Developer

                                ** This thread discusses the article: The New RPG Developer **
                                I teach RPG programming at Gateway Technical College in Kenosha WI. I wanted to comment on two things. One, the students in my classes actually like RPG. I teach Free format RPG ILE this includes procedures modules and service programs. I’ve actually heard students say they like RPG better than Java! Secondly, this years graduates (with the exception of one) got jobs this year based on their knowledge RPG not their knowledge of VB.net or Java. Check out the Programmer Analyst web page at Gateway Gateway System i Programmer/Analyst Jim Buck

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