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What Now, Oracle?

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  • What Now, Oracle?

    A very good article. Who's going to win Oracle or IBM ?

  • #2
    What Now, Oracle?

    What would I do if I were given only one choice between 1000 shares of Oracle, and 1000 shares of IBM? Let's put it this way - - I wouldn't be voting at any shareholders meetings presided over by Larry Ellison. Dave

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    • #3
      What Now, Oracle?

      That is a fascinating history piece, Thomas. I don't see any difference in IBM between IMS then and Websphere now, however. rd

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      • #4
        What Now, Oracle?

        I seem to remember that had a demo of Oracle in the early to mid '90s. This was a demo of Oracle being used as a "data dictionary" to files residing on the AS/400. I could be wrong but I thought Oracle started out as a S/38 or AS/400 product in the early days of client/server. If I'm not wrong then whey would IBM and Oracle have problems with each other. Oracle needed IBM (in more ways than one according to the article) and in a sense IBM needed (and still needs) Oracle to help propogate it's hardware solutions (i.e iSeries). Wouldn't this make the aquisition of PeopleSoft a good thing for the iSeries?

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        • #5
          What Now, Oracle?

          Oracle in the early 90's I seem to remember that had a demo of Oracle in the early to mid '90s. This was a demo of Oracle being used as a "data dictionary" to files residing on the AS/400. I could be wrong but I thought Oracle started out as a S/38 or AS/400 product in the early days of client/server. If I'm not wrong then whey would IBM and Oracle have problems with each other. Oracle needed IBM (in more ways than one according to the article) and in a sense IBM needed (and still needs) Oracle to help propogate it's hardware solutions (i.e iSeries). Wouldn't this make the aquisition of PeopleSoft a good thing for the iSeries? Oracle was a Unix product, Glen, and hasn't been ported to the AS/400 but has been ported to nearly everything else, so you might want to rework your questions based on that. If they did "port" Oracle database to the AS/400, it would be to the AIX and Linux LPARs of the newest AS/400 that runs AIX, and thus isn't a port, it's running Oracle in a partition of disk (you've done that on your PC) and memory (those that run a VM in Linux to host Windows do this on their PC) where AIX or Linux is hosted by the AS/400. This might seem semi-useful as happy talk from a salesman but you can only access it the same as an Oracle database on any server, that is over a network, part of the network being inside the AS/400 between LPAR's, as far as I've read. At least IBM hasn't touted any better connectivity than that that I've read. Why anyone would want to run Oracle in a Unix partition on the AS/400 is beyond me, but that is what Oracle speaks of for supporting the AS/400/iseries/i5/infinity/. rd

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          • #6
            What Now, Oracle?

            I actually ran Oracle on a Unix box in the early 90s. We were trying to market a certain brand of software sold running the Unix operating system. While we didn't stress test it and I am also new to the ISeries, I can tell you there is nothing like IBM and DB2 except maybe CA-IDMS. IBM may not have all the bells and whistles but they seem to outlive the competition. You wouldn't believe the applications ported from IMS to DB2 that are being re-deployed into IMS because of the performance ( at a local shop). IBM will be around forever. At my shop, we were a client/server shop that recently went to the AS400. No comparison. The Iseries is a real computer. The Novell client/server stuff is a tinker toy in comparison. I've been everywhere and done it all. There's nothing like IBM. Crystal Reports? Yuck. I welcome comments. [email protected]

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            • #7
              What Now, Oracle?

              hi engine, a couple of questions. IMS to DB2 that had to be returned to IMS wasn't AS/400 DB2/400, was it? Was it DB2 on Unix? Was it using SQL instead of record level I/O? Just curious what development methodology transition you're using and how it's working. VB client/server then? Websphere HTML now? Or what? What about database access methodology? From one type of record level access to another, or SQL to SQL, or what, and your thoughts? I've found this forum to be great for assisting newbies and vets alike. Welcome. rd

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              • #8
                What Now, Oracle?

                Amen. About 5 years ago I ran a shop where I had two large Solaris machines with Oracle running on them. While it's true that Unix and Solaris just run and run and run, I can't say the same about Oracle. We often had to "bounce" the database once or twice during the day. "Bounce" it the Unix world's word for reboot. This meant getting people off the database for at least 20 minutes while it was bounced. And, on top of it all, the Oracle database required me to have 2 full time DBAs on staff at over $100k per year. We ran an applications that was mission critical and this was unacceptable. Eventually the application was moved back to the AS/400 where it belonged. I have no faith in the Oracle database whatsoever. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "engine7547011" wrote in message news:[email protected] > I actually ran Oracle on a Unix box in the early 90s. > We were trying to market a certain brand of software sold running the Unix operating system. While we didn't stress test it and I am also new to the ISeries, I can tell you there is nothing like IBM and DB2 > except maybe CA-IDMS. IBM may not have all the bells and whistles but they seem to outlive the competition. You wouldn't believe the applications ported from IMS to DB2 that are being re-deployed into > IMS because of the performance ( at a local shop). IBM > will be around forever. At my shop, we were a client/server shop > that recently went to the AS400. No comparison. The Iseries is a real computer. The Novell client/server stuff is a tinker toy in comparison. I've been everywhere and done it all. There's nothing like IBM. Crystal Reports? Yuck. I welcome comments. > [email protected]

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                • #9
                  What Now, Oracle?

                  Chuck, I beg to disagree with ORACLE's performance as you have stated. My experience with ORACLE running on the DEC/VAX VMS proves otherwise. Remember in any DBMS, DB design thru data normalization, data space allocation, choosing/identifying the right keys/indexes are very critical if not essential. Assuming you have the right memory size and processor speed to handle these transactions. If you fail to address these issues, then you will have a difficult times ahead of you.

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                  • #10
                    What Now, Oracle?

                    Tony, While I agree with you that choosing the right database layout is important, I would never say it's critical. I've never, ever had to reboot an AS/400 because of a database problem. On our Solaris system we had to bounce the Oracle system at least twice within every 24 hour period because the database simply stopped responding. It wasn't that some tables got corrupt or some indexes got corrupt, the entire database completely stopped responding to all requests. We had an Oracle engineer parked at our Atlanta headquarters for a total of 3 weeks and he, along with his counterparts at Oracle HQ, could never solve the non-responding database problem. I understand that your experience may have been different, but I lived and breathed this night mare and never want to go there again. Conversely, I've been in the IBM midrange since 1973 and have never had the need to employ a DBA. And, I've seen some strange, convoluted file systems at companies I've worked at, but the database on a S/38 or AS/400 never stopped responding. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "TonyT" wrote in message news:[email protected] > Chuck, > > I beg to disagree with ORACLE's performance as you have stated. My experience with ORACLE running on the DEC/VAX VMS proves otherwise. Remember in any DBMS, DB design thru data normalization, data space allocation, choosing/identifying the right keys/indexes are very critical if not essential. Assuming you have the right memory size and processor speed to handle these transactions. If you fail to address these issues, then you will have a difficult times ahead of you.

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                    • #11
                      What Now, Oracle?

                      Chuck, I understand your point, however no matter how good your software is, if the hardware is a lemon, it will still fail. Most downtime encountered in I.T. is hardware related. That's why most management prefers a single vendor for hardware, OS, and DBMS like the AS400. If it fails blame it to IBM. In your situation, SUN for hardware and OS while ORACLE for DBMS. Remember all ORACLE DBMS software functionality is the same up to the access method/interrupt mechanism of the OS box it is installed.

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                      • #12
                        What Now, Oracle?

                        I will just throw this in. The $170 million FBI case system that was just pitched because even the 10% of planned capability that actually got implemented "just refused to work", according to the FBI. Now that isn't just a little slow or not gee whiz enough, it just flat out didn't work. The current FBI system is a "3270 green screen" system that must be completely replaced because to do anything else is "putting lipstick on a pig". These are FBI quotes. The case system worked for decades as designed, and is clearly mainframe COBOL. The new system? Oracle 9i, clearly SQL, on Sun Unix. Now I know better than that is Sun hardware to blame. Sun runs stock exchanges. Sun and 370's and the AS/400 and other high end mainframes work. We know they do. So people will blame the design, $170 million dollars worth of design and development over five years, that totally and absolutely still refuses to even respond. It is entirely Oracle other than the Sun hardwars. Oracle database and Oracle development and Oracle apps. But of course it must not be Oracle, it must be the design. I say we could go in and do the FBI case system on the AS/400 in RPG and prove once and for all that record level access in RPG and COBOL (and MUMPS I read yesterday for health care systems and banks and airlines) and SAP and other proven enterprise systems is what works for enterprise level transaction processing. That includes document imaging storage and retrieval and everything else a case system needs. All available on the AS/400 at high performance that works. Whatever the current fad from the big boys is, it doesn't work. The FBI should back me up on that, at the cost of $170 million to find out. rd

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                        • #13
                          What Now, Oracle?

                          This is a discussion about What Now, Oracle?.

                          Click here for the article.

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                          • #14
                            What Now, Oracle?

                            > Most downtime encountered in I.T. > is hardware related. I don't think this is accurate, although there is an entire class of hardware failures that look like software problems. Recent studies have repeatedly shown that it is software problems that cause applications to be unavailable. Comair is the most recent example, the AT&T phone debacle is another. --buck

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