Weaving WebSphere: IT Starts with an "i"

[H.Boldt]

Weaving WebSphere: IT Starts with an "i"

Joe said: "Well, I wasn't gfoing to say anything else, but this is even more blatantly anti-IBM noise. It is meant to imply that some Unix-based tool is as productive as WDSC, and that is pure nonsense." Rot! Look, the most difficult part of computer programming is the analysis. All the rest is mechanics. So what if you don't have RPG specific features in an editor. First, many editors allow you to add language specific features. So if the capability isn't already there, you are free to add your own, and share it with others. But secondly, any programmer worth his/her salt should do fine without RPG specific functionality. First, use free-form calcs. The syntax is easy and hard to get wrong. Second, it's not hard to cut and paste your own templates. Sure, I know it doesn't cost that much to upgrade your desktops to a level that can support the huge resource requirements of WDSC. But I stand by my point that you shouldn't have to continually upgrade just to get the latest and greatest features. Are the resource requirements of WDSC not overly excessive? You bet they are! We all know that. Deep down, I'm sure you realize that too. Cheers! Hans

[J.Pluta]

Weaving WebSphere: IT Starts with an "i"

"Look, the most difficult part of computer programming is the analysis. All the rest is mechanics. So what if you don't have RPG specific features in an editor. First, many editors allow you to add language specific features. So if the capability isn't already there, you are free to add your own, and share it with others." I don't agree with a single word of this statement. The idea that RPG specific features aren't needed by RPG programmers is simply mind-boggling. As is the idea that you should use a tool that makes you add your own features. "But secondly, any programmer worth his/her salt should do fine without RPG specific functionality. First, use free-form calcs. The syntax is easy and hard to get wrong. Second, it's not hard to cut and paste your own templates." It's clear, and has been for a long, long time, that you don't have a solid grasp on what RPG programmers do for a living. Ask an RPG programmer if WDSC's content assist (with the built-in help text for BIFs) helps them. Or whether the Outline feature saves them time. You are way out of line here, Hans, and if you expect me to even respond to any more of your posts, you need to talk to other people before you start deciding what kind of programmer is "worth his/her salt". And, don't try telling me what I realize. I think for what it does, WDSC is the best bang for your resource buck on the planet, bar none. There is no other IDE that allows you to build a multi-tiered multi-platform architecture using ILE as the back end and debug all the pieces front to back without leaving the IDE. And if you can't afford a $700 PC or you consider it to be too large, you are a hobbiest, not a developer and your needs are irrelevant to this discussion. Joe

[nandelin]

Weaving WebSphere: IT Starts with an "i"

This debate between Joe and Hans is like something out of the twilight zone. I find myself agreeing with every point Hans makes, but when Joe repudiates, I find myself agreeing with his points too (except for the personal attacks against Hans). The points made by both individuals coalesce into parallel planes in the same universe that never quite connect, but maintain their state of being, with only a slight gravitational pull between them.

[Guest.Visitor]

Weaving WebSphere: IT Starts with an "i"

Joe & Hans, Haven't we been down this road before? It matters not what your opinions are on WDSC, Linux, PHP vs Java, sytem this/system that. Who gives a hoot? You use what your employer gives you. You try to influence it and get what you need but if you're told to program in Perl, you learn to do it and do it well. This arguing is counter-productive. I will cease reading anything written by either of you. Both of you are bigots. Victoria should come down on you guys like a ton of bricks. For now, I'll just ignore anything you've written since I put no faith in what you have to say. I need a shower.

[Guest.Visitor]

Weaving WebSphere: IT Starts with an "i"

This is when my Dad would have said "Joe! Keep your mouth shut..." (Me Joe, not you Joe P.) Just another nickels worth: I done Unix V, I done AIX 4.3...in between and all the time OS/400 and i5/OS ya see? And nothing exists now, nor will there ever be, an operating system so richly enhanced and visible to thee. A few keystrokes and you see, that to do the same in Unix you need days, about three. If you've seen both sides, you'd have to agree, else you're Koo-koo for Cocoa-Puffs or jerking my knee...

[J.Pluta]

Weaving WebSphere: IT Starts with an "i"

Now wait a second here. The "personal attacks" amount to saying Hans' facts are wrong, he doesn't understand RPG programming and he is spreading FUD. I stand by all of those statements, although I could say thenm more nicely. I don't because he insists on hikjacking my columns with this stuff. I guarantee that if Hans posted this junk in his own post that wasn't a reply to my column, I'd ignore it completely. However, the stuff he's posting in reply to my article detracts from the point of the column. The column was about the future of the System i, not Hans' views on Linux and his former employer. And I think much of what he posts is indeed baseless. But let's see whether I'm over-reacting. You say you agree with everything Hans says. Are you saying that you agree with Hans that an RPG programmer is just as productive using a tool that has no RPG specific features? Because if you do say that an RPG programmer is just as productive in a text editor, I'll bet you any amount of money that I can find 100 programmers who disagree. What do you think? Joe

[H.Boldt]

Weaving WebSphere: IT Starts with an "i"

Nathan: I think you hit the nail on the head here. I have my own opinions based on more than 30 years of involvement with computers, and Joe has his based on a similar amount of experience. Is any one of us right or wrong? Or are we both right? Or both totally wrong? Actually, I don't entirely disagree with Joe's points either. That's the weird thing. But I hate to admit that I love seeing Joe's air of righteous indignation any time he perceives any opinion that differs with his. ;-) But fact is, Joe has his own business interests to protect, and currently, I don't, so I can say pretty much anything I want! (I'd like to find a job in the System i realm, but those jobs are pretty scarce within a reasonable commute of my home, and I'm not willing to move for any job. So if anyone can give me any leads on any System i work (F/T, P/T, contract) in the east Greater Toronto Area (Scarborough, Pickering, Ajax, Whitby), that would be much appreciated.) Yeah sure, I may be a Linux bigot. I've used Windows too, of course. The NT 2000 workstation I had at IBM wasn't too bad, but whenever I use my wife's XP box, I feel like I'm using a computer with boxing gloves. And that was even when I was using RedHat 7.3 on my old P2 box! Looking at Linux today, I have a lot of difficulty understanding why the entire System i world is not rapidly embracing Linux desktops, and not loudly demanding Linux based workstation tools. Eclipse runs on Linux. WSSD runs on Linux. But WDSC? Why not? Anyhoo, I've been rambling on enough for now. I'm just waiting for the wife and daughter to wake up so I can make us all breakfast. Since it's Saturday, I think I'll make them their favorite: pancakes! Cheers! Hans

[J.Pluta]

Weaving WebSphere: IT Starts with an "i"

Thanks, Tom. That was a bit of cold water, and when you're right you're right. I re-read my messages and they truly did de-volve into ad hominem attacks. No matter what the situation, there's nothing that makes it correct to attack another person, and I ought to know better. Address the position, don't attack the person. In the heat of the moment I forgot that and I appreciate you and Nathan calling me on it. Joe

[J.Pluta]

Weaving WebSphere: IT Starts with an "i"

Just to be clear here, I don't make money off of EGL, except the occasional article. I may some day if EGL takes off, but that's not why I promote it, any more than that's why I promoted Java and WDSC. As you yourself know, Hans, you don't get rich writing articles. Anyway, if you're implying that I push the System i, RPG, Java, WDSC or EGL because I make money off them, you're wrong. I push them because they're the best solution for keeping the platform alive, and THAT, my friend, is my mercenary interest: keeping the platform alive. Because I HAVE worked on Unix and on Windows, and I'd rather flip burgers than go back to either of those nightmares. That, however, does not justify my ad hominem attacks on you, and for those I apologize. I guess I'm still ticked off at you for the MOVE instruction business... Joe

[R.Daugherty]

Weaving WebSphere: IT Starts with an "i"

An interesting thread. The article on the future of the System i, "IT start with an "i"", is exceptionally insightful. I reviewed the EGL technical manual on IBM's site and together with Joe's point about IBM's penchant for 90 day trial software I was struck by deja vu. It was like reliving OS/2 again, including IBM's use of the term parts in software development. It's just very strange to see IBM recycle the same stuff over and over. IBM has made the one or two developer seats permanently available for the new WebQuery product and as I understand it for WebFacing/HATS. They would be very wise to listen to Joe and do the same thing for their development products, for the reasons Joe gave. Even back in OS/2 days no one bought into the 90 trial thing that IBM seems to think will seduce people into buying their products. (As in, oh I've done such interesting things with IBM's software and now the 90 days has elapsed!!!) The EGL manual struck me as VisualAge for J2EE. IBM really is into this point and click, connect the dots software development thing, as in you don't need no stinkin programmers, all you need is someone to point and click and connect the dots with plug in components. Of course they do the same thing with admins too. Their entire purpose in life I think is to get rid of computer people. Then we could all be like IBM. Future of System i? I can't quite see the VisualAge for J2EE EGL "glue" value of calling programs and invoking JSP's when people like Joe and others have demonstrated frameworks invoking JSP's for quite some time now. I would advocate a universal open source glue before I would advocate IBM's overengineered very expensive tie in to Websphere as the replacement for the universal development environment we used to have. I would think that Webfacing (5250 data buffers to JSP's) would be a better IBM proprietary foundation than EGL. If you look at the EGL manual you will see how mainframe oriented it is. Even though it said EGL for iSeries, it says 3270 throughout and supports terminal and text form outputs, mentioning Informix specifically as the reason for one of the console output formats supported. They're really big into lowest denominator cross platform, and we definitely would be better off with an open source framework or converge on a superior System i vendor solution. rd

[Guest.Visitor]

Weaving WebSphere: IT Starts with an "i"

As mentioned some time ago, thru several M&A's. (You know, we're a big fish, we swallow up a smaller fish, then get eaten up by an even bigger fish.) Our AS/400's were targeted for scrap, replaced by the big fishes Dec Alpha system and DiBOL development language and the primitive editors EDT and EVE. My ebcdic is gone and I can't find my ascii with both hands! Relational databases didn't exist when this baby was prime-time. Visibility into an ordinary datafile ain't there. God do I miss something as simple as DSPPFM. And debugging a batch (DETACHED)job...Huh-uh. Oh, it's fast, linear, singular...no programs calling programs, calling programs. One program with internal subroutine calls, external subroutine calls...but no calling from a called pgm. I still support the half of the company that's running on our rocket-ship-monster, a$$-kicking "400"...But I'm experiencing technical-malnutrition. Can you get "rickets" from lack of exposure to WDSC, ILE/RPG, and i5/OS? You can sure get "home-sick"...I'll tell you that!

[H.Boldt]

Weaving WebSphere: IT Starts with an "i"

Joe wrote: "Just to be clear here, I don't make money off of EGL, except the occasional article. I may some day if EGL takes off, but that's not why I promote it, any more than that's why I promoted Java and WDSC. As you yourself know, Hans, you don't get rich writing articles." No kidding, brother! And with the current exchange rate on the dollar, getting rich as an author is going to take longer than ever! ;-) I've been hearing about EGL for quite some time now, and I'm still not sure how, or if, it will take off. I think Ralph made some good points comparing EGL with OS/2. A more appropriate comparison might be with SAA. There are still people within IBM who think the company can significantly influence overall IT trends. "Anyway, if you're implying that I push the System i, RPG, Java, WDSC or EGL because I make money off them, you're wrong. I push them because they're the best solution for keeping the platform alive, and THAT, my friend, is my mercenary interest: keeping the platform alive. Because I HAVE worked on Unix and on Windows, and I'd rather flip burgers than go back to either of those nightmares." I can sympathize. My preference right now is to work in the iSeries world. But the lure of a much lower-paying job with much higher level of job satisfaction is very tempting. I agree - I'd rather flip burgers than be a Windows programmer. But today's Linux is another matter. Joe, have you had a look at any current Linux distro? I'm running openSUSE 10.3 on my new dual CPU AMD64 machine, and it rocks. Seriously rocks! It blows Windows out of the water. Seriously! There has got to be a lot of broken chairs in Redmond these days! I certainly know the kind of pain earlier distros caused, but that was then and this is now. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I find it amazing that the iSeries world is not running in droves to convert their Windows desktops to Linux. "That, however, does not justify my ad hominem attacks on you, and for those I apologize. I guess I'm still ticked off at you for the MOVE instruction business... " Apology accepted. Regarding the MOVE opcode, just to be clear, someone else in the RPG team insisted that MOVE not be a part of /FREE. It was all the same to me, actually. I didn't see much point in keeping the opcode, but at the same time, I didn't see much harm in it either. After the 2004 re-org, Barbara tried putting the MOVE opcode in plan again, but she ran up against the same road-block as before. If you still think it's important enough, keep pressing the issue. The opposing person has to retire soon! Cheers! Hans

[nandelin]

Weaving WebSphere: IT Starts with an "i"

Hans, I love your Web site. You've done a first class job from top to bottom. And if Windows were a scarecrow, I'd be pleased if Linux knocked some of the stuffing out. I don't have the time required to be a decent Windows support technician, but when my friends and neighbors hear that I develop software for a living, they can't help but ask me to be a Windows trouble-shooter. You also make a good point about the huge and growing resource requirements of Windows and tools like WDSC. The problem for me is not the price to buy a powerful new PC. The real problem is finding all the CD's for all the software I have on my current desktop, running through the install procedures, downloading and applying the updates. The last time I updated WDSC, the download took about a day. In some cases I don't even have CD's. I've downloaded software and purchased licenses over the Internet from various sources, and I'd have to research how to transfer the licenses. If I upgrade to Vista while my friends and family are still on XP, then I'd need to support two (2) environments. They'd get jealous too, and wonder why I had a fancy new system while they were relegated to old dogs. My wife has about 4,000 contacts in MS Outlook, and I'd have to figure out how to get that data over to a new PC. I'm sure I can do it, but it takes time away from my other priorities. Have you ever noticed that no matter how fast the new CPU clock speeds are, and no matter how much memory you get, your new system runs slower than your old one. The resource requirements of the new software have simply grown disproportionately. I'd like to see that trend reversed, and it seems to me that Linux may be a key. For my part, I'm doing what I can to move applications back to the server using a combination of Web 2.0 user interfaces on the client, supported by efficient ILE interfaces on the server. The result is a highly responsive user interface combined with the traditional reliability of native System i applicaton interfaces. I understand that my I must support Internet Explorer, but my default browser is Firefox, and Firefox is supported on Linux. If Linux is a key to reversing the trend toward moving applications off the System i, then I'd like to do what I can to help. I read a book on Ubuntu Linux and was very impressed. It made me want to try it. I hope I can find the time. Nathan.

[J.Pluta]

Weaving WebSphere: IT Starts with an "i"

"I've been hearing about EGL for quite some time now, and I'm still not sure how, or if, it will take off." It's already taking off. And one of the more surprising positive responses has been in the System i community. But rest assured that EGL is here to stay for some time; it's currently under review by OMG to be a Platform Independent Model, which means it will run everywhere. Anyway, let's discuss this in a year and see where things stand. "Joe, have you had a look at any current Linux distro?" Not the most recent, although I will shortly because I need to upgrade my sorely out of date email server. (I've been a Linux guy for many years now ) I don't ever see Linux replacing i5/OS, but I think I need to take a closer look at it as a file/email server (and maybe as a web appliance), and then as a desktop. In fact, I have a big old Compaq server that may need to be set up as a Linux server, and if that works, I'll be able to convert my big honking dual-Xeon Windows 2003 64-bit server. I just have to figure out which distribution is the correct one for my needs, and that's hard to determine. Joe

[H.Boldt]

Weaving WebSphere: IT Starts with an "i"

Joe wrote: "I don't ever see Linux replacing i5/OS," Neither do I. But the point I've been making is that companies need to consider replacing their Windows desktops with Linux. In fact many are already doing so. Check out the item in yesterday's Slashdot: 90% of IT Professionals Don't Want Vista. Looking at the logs for my own web site, I see about a 3 times increase in the number of Linux visitors over the past year! Granted, the numbers of Linux visitors is still small, so there's a large error factor involved. But that does echo other sources that report a doubling of desktop Linux users over the past year. Regarding EGL, to see what kind of popular buzz EGL has, try searching google for "EGL". EGL may have the same search problem that RPG has! ;-) Cheers! Hans