Are You Proactive or Sedentary?

[MCWebsite.Staff]

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[Guest.Visitor]

Are You Proactive or Sedentary?

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Once again I hear that Java performs poorly (I don't forgive you ) ...compared to what? Native RPG on the as400 or to ...? Ok, the java implementation on the iseries400 performs badly. Last year I was able to compare a J2EE application (xml processing) in WAS on PC with iseries400. My conclusion: don't use the iseries to run java applications. Java has many benefits over RPG. Why not use rich client applications using java swing? Use a combination of swing(front) with rpg (backend). Some frameworks already exist for this kind of approach.

[JPPulinx]

Are You Proactive or Sedentary?

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I firmly agree with the statement that it is much better to use a combination of a "rich client" and a strong RPG back-end. For many years now we develop large scale applications with a Delphi (Windows) front-end, with RPG/DB2 on the server side and socket-based messaging in between. Performance is splendid. The end-users get the most sophisticated graphical userinterface they can dream of, while the system is still as stable and powerful as in a traditional iSeries shop. I agree with Bob that it still is a strange story why IBM has neglected the loyal installed base of midrange systems for so many years. I'am afraid it is allready too late for the platform. The generation of AS/400 adicks is rapidly going away and the next generation of IT’ers is bluntly refusing to work on the platform. It's only a matter of a few years now. Only a miracle can save the best server in the world. Jean-Pierre Pulinx Belgium

[R.Cozzi]

Are You Proactive or Sedentary?

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Well, you agree with me... why would I care or even mention that Java performs better on non-iSeries boxes when I don't have a desire to advocate using those non-iSeries boxes? Have you used OS/400 V5R3? I'm hearing nothing but bad news about Java performance in that release.

[StuartL]

Are You Proactive or Sedentary?

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Have you used OS/400 V5R3? I'm hearing nothing but bad news about Java performance in that release. IMHO, if Java performance stinks on V5R3, it's not the programming languages fault, it is the underlying implementation. Shame on IBM, for touting Java as their server development language of choice, but not promoting the language fully. Check out Text Although this website compares language performance between "C" and "Java", one can ascertain that the problem is not Java, it lies within the implementation.

[Guest.Visitor]

Are You Proactive or Sedentary?

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Google this ... Java performance AS/400. I see nothing but positive performance statements. For example ... http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/j...-iw-as400.html The above referenced article (dated 2000-08) shows the AS/400 with top scores in two types of benchmark tests. True, the machines were high end AS/400's being compared with other vendors premier equipment, but since price/performance only improves with time, the 400 should not now be a dog. Does anyone have other benchmarks to back up the claim of poor performance, or is it all anecdotal? Could it be that good performance lies in configuration and development skills which are not in great abundance? (no slight intended). Regards- David Keck

[bharder@nlrha.ab.ca]

Are You Proactive or Sedentary?

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There's a small history lesson in order here, even though most of us already know this. IBM's push to label everything Websphere, and promote everything Websphere, is a little too reminiscient of their efforts in the past. Websphere is too much product for many SMB's. Remember when Java was the "right answer" to everything (this one is still in circulation)? Before that it was Visual Basic. Before that it was Client/Server (that might have been in conjunction with VB, and I'm not sure IBM was the prime culprit there). I even remember a time when SmallTalk was promoted as the best thing ever, and the language that was going to unite architectures. And wasn't C equated with Open Systems (and Unix too, for that matter) for the longest time? A lot of shops looked at the complexity these solutions offered, the expense, the learning curve, the multiple failure points, and decided to sit tight. Another thing that is forgotten is that Y2K pushed a lot of shops to packaged software. Our shop had already made the transition, but we also have a culture of being very cautious when modifying code that fundamentally is not our own. So our vendor (well, one of them) created a screen scraper product based on VB. We evaluated it, found it unimpressive, and took a pass. Then our vendor put a web front end on their system. Great, except that their idea and all their promotion was that THEY would run the entire system and customers would subscribe. This was an early iteration of the Application Service Provider model. It sounded innovative, but it didn't meet our needs at the time. Eventually this sideline business went "belly up." My point is that this vendor has been following along with at least some of the IBM recommendations, and current industry buzz. It led to a lot of dead ends. IBM's current Road Map seems to me to be a marked improvement. It acknowledges that there are several different roads to the future. It also sets short and intermediate term goals that are achievable. If you push the message that "you have to rewrite everything just because we say so," you risk repeating the mistakes of the past. These systems aren't fashion statements.

[Guest.Visitor]

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Some shops are too small to break out into RPG IV re-writes. We have an S/36 RPG II ERP application that has been upgraded to a combination of every RPG coding style from 1985 to 2000. Every bad technique, every developers nightmare is included somewhere in the code. SQL can only sometimes be used. Windows (hopefully in the future Linux) supports the desktop. Windows and ColdFusion support the web. All new ERP extensions are done in RPG IV. We simply don't have the financial justification to replace the ERP system and we don't have the financial where with all to re-write existing functionality. But we also never say it can't be done. We find a way giving preference to the i5. IBM Roadmap. What's that other than a maze of deadends.

[kingsalomon]

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When I was consulting I would see alot of companies that had IT staff who were 5 to 10 years away from retirement and didn't care about learning the newer technologies. I'm not sure I could blame them.

[Matt.Tyler]

Are You Proactive or Sedentary?

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In our shop the two common excuses are the lowest common denominator (meaning that everyone needs to know how to at least read and debug the program in case there is a halt in production) and business reason. If I or others that are keen to use new coding technologies introduces anything, the first thing we hear is why do we need to know that, I can already do it this way. Recently, three programmers were put on a project to re-work our payroll system. Some of the employee selection screens required them to sort/search for by different columns. Because of they reworked the database (normalizing the data) some of the selections screens would not work like they used to (i.e., sort and selection fields were from different tables). They opted to use SQLRPGLE to ensure the user selection screens could be programmed without handicapping the user with extra slow performance. A couple programmers cannot seem to come to terms that SQL is needed in any case to fulfill a need. To them if it is not RPG then it is problematic (the same attitude about RPG IV's numeric overflow issue, blame the tool not the tool user of the tool). One even went so far as to state that you cannot debug a SQL statement (*QMQRY or SQLRPGLE) but you can an OPNQRYF statement. In our company the general attitude is, how much is that going to cost us and who will benefit? Will it increase sales?

[Guest.Visitor]

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Bob, As time goes forward everything I read reinforces my decision to use WebSmart in our shop (WebSmart creates RPG CGI programs) instead of learning Java. Not only is Java slow to learn it appears it's slow to run! chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Bob Cozzi" wrote in message news:6b2775f6.2@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Well, you agree with me... why would I care or even mention that Java > performs better on non-iSeries boxes when I don't have a desire to > advocate using those non-iSeries boxes? > > Have you used OS/400 V5R3? I'm hearing nothing but bad news about Java > performance in that release.

[David Abramowitz]

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My shop recently spent appx $750,000. to rewrite a portion of our system for the web. After all was said and done, much more was said than done. The new system does nothing (except look prettier) than the previous system did, except with more data errors. The developers of the new system refused to use the AS400 as a data basis, so we have to transfer data back and forth on an hourly basis. The new system periodically goes down, and the maintenance costs are unbelievable. The users hate it, and sneak back to the older programs to get their info despite being told not to do so. The powers that be would love to get rid of it, except that there's so much invested a loss of face would occur. The decision to have the newer system developed was purely political, and at the end of the day nothing more is being accomplished than before. IMO Technology in and of itself is meaningless. Newer or different technology can only be of use if goals and objectives are clearly defined in advance. If newer technology can deliver better, more useful information in a faster fashion to those who need it, then certainly the investment is justified. OTOH rewriting existing systems for the sole purpose of putting the same thing on a different platform will accomplish little if anything. In other words, know and understand the deliverables you want before the project begins. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

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My company uses iSeries, RPG, COBOL, JAVA, and PERL. The JAVA does not run on the iSeries platform and still runs slow, and is hard to manage. The PERL is fast and easier to manage. The RPGLE on the iseries is fast, easy to manage. The COBOL, well it is too much coding. I stay away as much as I can. If you want benchmarks... When you are on the web and a site runs slow, if it is not a slow server it is usually a JAVA site. I believe in using the best tool for the job and so far I am not convinced that JAVA is superior. Why change for the sake of new? I prefer to write web in CGI RPG with some Javascript. I know the iSeries is a dinosaur and can't do this and that, But it is always up and running. It can and does do just about anything the other platforms do. Oh, yeah and you don't need 3 people monitoring a room full of these other servers 24x7. Maybe the younger guys just like having lots of servers piled up all over the place. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[M.Savino]

Are You Proactive or Sedentary?

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Matt, NO disrespect but this is how I read your post. (And BTW I do use RPGLE and SQL) 1) The project team didn't do their homework before making Database Changes. 2) The result of the DB Changes were that they trashed some previously working applications that the users depended on. 3) They used their own carelessness to justify their eagerness to break with your Shop's Standards. Mike

[R.Cozzi]

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Yes, CGI is the great choice, but JSPs (if you bother taking the time to understand and learn them) with RPG IV is also a good solution. To do this, you need to wrap the call to the RPG in a Java class, but its not impractical. Just a bit more complex than straight CGI RPG IV. Today, I still use RPG IV and CGI. And yes, it is the i5 implementation of Java that stinks. But the start up of Java tinks on most platforms--Thank goodness those mobile cell phones that use it finally have faster processors.