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[J.Panzenhagen]

The previous message was brought to you complements of the the California Development Association in partnership with local L.A. Chambers of Commerce. :-)

[David Abramowitz]

Are you safe?

Q: How many Californians does it take to change a light bulb A: 47 - One to actually change the bulb, and the other 46 to sit around and "Share the Experience". Q: How can you tell the difference between a Californian and a New Yorker on an Escalator. A: The Californian is not moving. Dave

[dbrunner@co.kenosha.wi.us]

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Chuck, While I can believe what you are telling me is the truth, I think you left out some necessary information. What are the populations of these "cities"? The statistics compare like population sizes, therefore there are many "number 1's" based on size. Also, if you only have to drive 10 miles out of your "fort" to be in the worst crime area, does the statistic hold as much merit? I am also interested in the price of a 2,000 square foot, 4 bedroom, 2 bath, Victorian style house, and the taxes one could expect to pay on it, in your utopia. Here in Wisconsin they run around $75-90K, with taxes of $1,800. We call it quality of life, bang for your buck, or just plain good value. Got milk? $1.80 a gallon. (I wish I could use it as Gas!) Pork tenderloin, $ 2.25 a pound. You name the commodity, and I bet we can beat your price. Ok, so I'll give you avocados. Looking at Nate's list, I see where the salaries out there are just slightly ahead of the Mid west. So to get the same quality of life, I would need to work 2 jobs, send my wife back to work, and throw the kids in day care. Then I would have to spend an average 2 hours commuting every day, vice the 30 minutes I now enjoy driving along the shore of Lake Michigan. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking California, or any other State that charges so much, for so little. Some of us just like being a little back yardish, and penny wise. That's just my opinion, I could be wrong. Dale

[S.Mildenberger]

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I think that is great, everybody should move to California. Except me, of course.

[Guest.Visitor]

Are you safe?

While I can believe what you are telling me is the truth, I think you left out some necessary information. What are the populations of these "cities"?

They were based on the number of crimes committed per 100,000 population.

with taxes of $1,800. We call it quality of life, bang for your buck, or just plain good value.

And what's your quality of life in late January? There's a reason why your housing is so cheap.

[Guest.Visitor]

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Dale,

You bring up some good points. The FBI only publishes those statistics for cities over 100k. Thousand Oaks is 120k in size. San Jose, the largest of the top 10, is 890k.

Housing costsin Thousand Oaks, like most cities, varies in price. The area I live in you'd pay about $500k for a tract house of about 2800 sq. ft. The newer tract homes run in the 7 figures. However, in Santa Clarita and Simi Valley, two of the other top 3 cities, it'd be possible to find new 2500 sq ft homes in the $250k range. While this may seem steep for some areas of the country, it's a good investment. My equity doubled in the first 4 years of ownership. (I've owned my house since 1987.) That's better than any other investment I've had in the last 14 years, except for my Amgen stock.

Look at it another way. Mycousin owns a home in northern Indiana. Her house payments, plus utilities average around the same as mine. Why? She's had huge gas and electric bills when the winters are nasty.

As to other cost-of-living expenses in here. Electronics is cheaper in SoCal than any other place in the U.S., gasoline prices are cheaper than in Chicago, I only use my air conditioner about 4 days per year so my electric bill isn't very high. My natural gas bill isn't very high, either. Don't use the furnace much.

Most items are as reasonable or cheaper than other places to live. High volume keeps cost down. 1/3 of all U.S. vegetables aregrown here. California is THE dairy state(don't listen to the Wisconsin hype!) and California's number 1 industry is agriculture, not tourism, movies, etc.

Property taxes? Fixed at 1% of the purchase price, by law. That's been in effect since 1976. My taxes haven't changed much since I purchased the house in 1987.

There's a lot of mis-information about California. Unfortunately, I don't really want to set the record straight too much because we get 3,000 new residents per month and I'd like to see that slow down. So....forget everything I've said! ;-)

Chuck

"Dale W. Brunner" <Dale_W._Brunner@forums.midrangecomputing.com> wrote in message news:1e797ce2.2@WebX.WawyahGHajS...

Chuck, While I can believe what you are telling me is the truth, I think you left out some necessary information. What are the populations of these "cities"? The statistics compare like population sizes, therefore there are many "number 1's" based on size. Also, if you only have to drive 10 miles out of your "fort" to be in the worst crime area, does the statistic hold as much merit? I am also interested in the price of a 2,000 square foot, 4 bedroom, 2 bath, Victorian style house, and the taxes one could expect to pay on it, in your utopia. Here in Wisconsin they run around $75-90K, with taxes of $1,800. We call it quality of life, bang for your buck, or just plain good value. Got milk? $1.80 a gallon. (I wish I could use it as Gas!) Pork tenderloin, $ 2.25 a pound. You name the commodity, and I bet we can beat your price. Ok, so I'll give you avocados. Looking at Nate's list, I see where the salaries out there are just slightly ahead of the Mid west. So to get the same quality of life, I would need to work 2 jobs, send my wife back to work, and throw the kids in day care. Then I would have to spend an average 2 hours commuting every day, vice the 30 minutes I now enjoy driving along the shore of Lake Michigan. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking California, or any other State that charges so much, for so little. Some of us just like being a little back yardish, and penny wise. That's just my opinion, I could be wrong. Dale

[Guest.Visitor]

Are you safe?

Southern California is a nice place to visit, and I'm sure N.Y. is too, but...I wouldn't trade small town life for anything. The town I live in has less than 3,000 people. The graduating class size for the high school this year was 18. We have zero stop lights, but 3 bars and 6 churches. Small town life isn't for everyone. If you are bothered by the fact that you run to the grocery store and the next day three people asked you what it was you bought there...then you probably wouldn't like it. If you're a private person, small town life is not for you. On the other hand, if you want a "relatively" safe place to raise your kids, pay low property taxes, and be able to park your car outside all week with the doors unlocked and not have to worry about anything getting stolen, then perhaps small town life is for you. There's both good and bad in city and rural life. I prefer the small town life. Awhile back, after spending a very annoying day in St. Louis, I was reflecting on life in this small town. Here's what I came up with. ---- We have a little newspaper that comes out once a week, and usually it's filled with news of births and deaths and letters to the editor thanking someone for attending a funeral or to praise the little league team. Not too awful long ago, I was reading our paper and came across a letter to the editor. It was from a teenage girl and she was "just setting the record straight". It seems, according to her letter, that she'd been fired from the local Diary Queen. She wasn't denying the fact that she'd been fired. Rather, she was taking offense because rumors had been flying around town that the reason she'd been fired was because she had head lice. So...and this is the small town mindset...let's see....about 3 people in the whole town had probably heard the head lice rumor. That is until she wrote her letter to the editor. After that, the whole town knew about it. But! Let's make sure we set the record straight, eh? Yeesh. The head lice letter appeared in the paper a few months ago. About a month ago, we noticed an ad in the newspaper wanting "hygenic" help at the Dairy Queen. Hmm...maybe there was some truth to those head lice rumors. The hygenic-help-wanted ad ran for about 3 or 4 weeks and then just disappeared, which left me wondering: Did they find a hygenic person or did they just lower their standards? I have a sudden aversion to Dairy Queen ice cream. I was at an auction two weekends ago, here in town, and it was a hot day. The auctioneer was rattling on about some worthless piece of junk, but making it sound like the Mona Lisa. Anyway, between his embellishments and the heat, I lost interest for a moment and stepped back away from the wagon. As I took off my ball cap and mopped my brow, some movement down the street about a block away caught my eye. I turned to see what it was, and watched a man push one of those old wood-cabinet, floor model console TV's that were all the rage in the 70's and 80's, out of a driveway and then down the street, headed in the opposite direction from the auction. Here it was 90 degrees outside with about 85% humidity, and there's this man calmly pushing a big old TV down the middle of the street. Now granted, this is the same town where the guy wraps his entire house in plastic every winter to cut down on heating bills, but still... I looked around at the other people at the auction, but no one was paying attention to the guy pushing the TV. I watched him as he pushed this old TV down the street a good 2 or 3 blocks, and this is on an oiled street that had become hot and sticky from the sun beating down on it. When he came to a corner a few blocks away, he turned and pushed the TV on down that street and out of my view. That left me wondering. Had he just decided that he needed some exercise and the TV was the closest thing to hand or does he normally take his TV for a walk on Sundays? You know, just to give it some air? I wanted to follow him and ask him what the story was, but to be honest, I was afraid he'd tell me and then what would I do? Where I live, there's this big open, grassy field behind my house. It's about a quarter mile long. On the other side of it is the little shopping plaza that contains our grocery store, drug store and video store. Last Sunday I looked out back as I was walking past a window and saw this big, colorful "thing" being inflated. I told my wife about it (who was much less impressed than I was...) and then I grabbed the camera and ran outside. When I got out alongside my house to where I could see, I saw that some people were inflating a hot air balloon. I thought that was pretty cool! Apparently I wasn't alone. As I stood there (a total time of about 20 minutes) it seemed as if the whole town had come out to watch. Cars were pulling up, filled with kids and older folks, all talking and pointing. High school boys were pulling up in pickups, with other boys hanging out the back, hollering, and the neighbors were coming out of their houses, pointing and yelling at their kids to "stay back". It was as if someone were giving away a million dollars, judging by all the noise of excitment. As we watched, they got the balloon inflated and they helped a white haired older woman into the gondola. When the pilot got in with her, he gave the balloon a blast of fire and it took off! I heard someone shouting, "Have fun Grandma!". The woman with two kids standing next to me on the sidewalk was just really amazed, "Oh my goodness!". "I've never been this close to something like that!". I grinned at her and nodded and took some more pictures. I guess I'm about as goofy as the rest of the town. So anyway, there's no point to these anecdotes except for the fact that I was just reflecting on how much I hate cities, and how thankful I am that I live in a small town. You can keep SoCal and NY. I'll remain a happy hick in Smallville!

[Guest.Visitor]

Are you safe?

That's a great picture of small town live, Shannon. I think I could get used to it. I was raised in Santa Monica, and Huntington Beach, California. But I fled there 20+ years ago for a more family-friendly town inUtah. Now the growth in my suburban community sometimes has me yearning fora rural experience. And the State of Utah is beginning to encourage that with an initiative to link rural areas in the State to the information age via high-speed communication networks. It's just in the planning stage. But it sounds intriguing. If there were some form of broadband communication out there, I'd be tempted.

Nathan.

[Guest.Visitor]

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Chuck, over here in the UK we have a complete picture of what life in California is like. Ater all we have Baywatch. :-) Dave...

[Guest.Visitor]

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Nyuk, nyuk. And, of course, our 6pm news paints London as a place where the IRA blows up a tube station weekly. Of course, I've been to London and know that it's a wonderful place. However, I did find it quaint to see plumbing running down the wallson the outside of houses. ;-)

chuck

Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

"Dave Kahn" <Dave_Kahn@forums.midrangecomputing.com> wrote in message news:1e797ce2.8@WebX.WawyahGHajS...

Chuck, over here in the UK we have a complete picture of what life in California is like. Ater all we have Baywatch. :-) Dave...

[Guest.Visitor]

Are you safe?

Dale,

>>I am also interested in the price of a 2,000 square foot, 4 bedroom, 2 bath, Victorian >>style house, and the taxes one could expect to pay on it, in your utopia. Here in >>Wisconsin they run around $75-90K, with taxes of $1,800. We call it quality of >>life, bang for your buck, or just plain good value.

In California your property taxes would be about $750 per year for that same house! Sounds like the state of Wisconsin is ripping you off, not good value. Mine are around $2,600 for a house valued at $525k. What would my property taxes be in WI?

>>Got milk? $1.80 a gallon.

That's about what we pay. Actually, I think we pay a littleless. You gotta remember, more dairy products are produced in California than anywhere else. I can also buy strawberries (and most vegetables) at the farms that produce them 12 months per year.

>>Looking at Nate's list, I see where the salaries out there are just slightly ahead of the

>>Mid west. So to get the same quality of life, I would need to work 2 jobs,

>>send my wife back to work, and throw the kids in day care.

I don't buy into salary surveys. As I learned in MBA school, ALL surveys are flawed. The going rate for a Senior P/A (are there any non-senior P/As in the AS/400 world?) is $70k - $90k around here. I know, I hire them. A good friend of mine just got a $10k signing bonus, plus all JDE education paid for free. SoCal is, literally, a hotbed of AS/400 installations. In fact, some of the largest AS/400 installations are here. Companies like Countrywide Funding, Disney, etc.

chuck

Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

Are you safe?

Dale,

One more comment...

>> Also, if you only have to drive 10 miles out of your "fort" to be in the worst crime

>> area, does the statistic hold as much merit?

This is the kind of thinking I'd expect to hear from those who've been brainwashed by New York based national news or jealous local news.

A little geography, or perhaps a trip to maps.yahoo.com would tell you that 10 miles doesn't even get me to the center of Simi Valley (America's safest city).

I expect that the "worst crime area" you refer to south central L.A. That's about a 60 minute drive from my house. If you lived in South Bend, Indiana you'd be closer to Gary (one of the worst crime rates in the U.S.). If you lived in lovely Lakeside Park, Kentucky, you'd be much closer to the riot areas of Cincinnati. I have two mountain ranges between me and south centraland a totally different weather climate than south central L.A.

For some silly reason, the entire area of Southern California is painted as crime riddled. When, in reality, most cities are similar to your small town with low crime rate, much community involvement and contented neighborhoods.I'm involved in the PTSA, my daughters' travel softball and basketball teams, etc. justlike everyother small town USA parent. We just have wonderful weather 12 months per year which draws a lot attention. It also lets my daughters play travel softball 52 weekends per year. That's why SoCal is the mecca of fastpitch softball.

But don't get me started on athletics, I went to UCLA which is, by far, the number one college in athletics in the country. ;-)

chuck

Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

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And, of course, our 6pm news paints London as a place where the IRA blows up a tube station weekly.

Actually the IRA comprehensively destroyed an office block that I'd previously spent several months working at. And I once heard one of the big Christmas shopping specials going off about half a mile away.

Of course, I've been to London and know that it's a wonderful place. However, I did find it quaint to see plumbing running down the walls on the outside of houses.

Better than having water running down the inside. :-) Dave...

[S.Mildenberger]

Are you safe?

>> That's why SoCal is the mecca of fastpitch softball. >>But don't get me started on athletics, I went to UCLA which is, by far, the number one college in athletics in the >>country. ;-) Too bad UCLA only got second in NCAA fastpitch this year, maybe Arizona is the new mecca!

[Guest.Visitor]

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We had a couple of foreign exchange students living with us from from our sister city, Votkinsk, Russia. Their idea of life in America was influenced by our soap operas. One young lady was particularly interested in Santa Barbara, California - aparently it's the setting of a soap show.

As part of the sister city partnership, West Jordan, Utah police officersrecently visited Votkinsk, Russia tolearn from one another. While there, they were asked how many people they had shot in their careers. After watching American TV, it was almost too much for the Russiansto believe thatthe American police officers hadn't shot anyone - although their combinedexperience summed to something like 50 years.

BTW, West Jordan, Utah got national coverage this past week. It was fun to hear my wife briefly on NPR radio. She's the Chairwoman of the sister city committee, a volunteer position. She helped organize several events surrounding the closure of missle inspections which had taken place in Utah since 1988 as part of the INF Treaty (which eliminated a class of medium range missles).

Russian military officers have been living in West Jordan these past 13 years. Our community has reached out to make them feel welcome. The cold war is a distant memory for many of us. It has been replaced by cooperation. Because of some lasting friendships that have been formed, West Jordan is a safer place than it used to be.

Nathan.