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The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community

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  • #16
    The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community

    ** This thread discusses the article: The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community **
    Thanks for making my Saturday, Ralph. I guess that's what I deserve for reading forums this early . Seriously, though, this whole mess has gotten out of hand. I'm going to vent a little steam here, but only because I'm unable to yet cogently espouse my worldview on this topic; I'm still forming it. It seems a couple of things are at work here, feeding off one another. First, you have the rise of the non-technical IT decision maker (NTITDM), paired with the technical advisor who has no practical application experience (TAWPAE). It is this tandem that is required to make the REALLY bad IT decisions. The TAWPAE knows nothing but buzzwords and believes the latest trend is the best thing, and the NTITDM knows nothing but the bottom line. What you end up with is a decision to use the cheapest new thing (or the newest cheap thing). Second, you have the mass marketing mumbo-jumbo spewing forth in great excess from the vendors and the trade rags and their pundits. Only a vendor would be able to convince an NTITDM that platform independence is a crucial business requirement. Only trade rags can hype Extreme Programming as a smart way to develop mission-critical software, only a pundit can tell you SQL is faster than RPG. So now we have the poor NTITDM reading about how Windows can be "secured" and how server farms provide "platform independence" when in truth, Microsoft is getting ever more proprietary and the only thing you can count on is that each new release will require you to rewrite your software yet again. This issue needs to be brought to light. Maybe I can use the IAAI to do so. Joe

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    • #17
      The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community

      ** This thread discusses the article: The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community **
      Here's a thought experiment for everyone, Joe. If a 5250 or 3270 screen is displayed in a browser, is the green screen now "open"? Here's another. If COBOL or RPG code is used to generate web pages instead of green screens, is there really any difference in speed of development and rollout, weeks instead of months according to this IT executive concerning quote unquote web enabled, fancy talk for screens in a browser instead of an emulator. If you come to the same conclusion that I do, that there is no significant difference in development and rollout time, then that eliminates the interface as the source of this miraculous technology leap that is touted by every IT person who is fit to be quoted. Then if not the interface, what is the source of this miracle? What is a typical "web enabled" application developed in, and where does it run? Often you will see it is Windows, and the apps are Windows programs. Now a last thought experiment. Take any statement with web enabled, replace with client server, and see if there is any difference between what was said by our glorious IT luminaries in client server days of yore and now. You will find absolutely no difference, except that client server was a massive failed experiment. Oh wait. You still won't find a difference. rd

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      • #18
        The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community

        ** This thread discusses the article: The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community **
        That's a fine analogy, Ralph, but there's one huge difference between client/server (or what we call thick client today) and browser-based (also known as web-enabled). The browser is ubiquitous and thus the interface requires no additional software. So the browser has a very real business advantage. And replacing your 5250 interface with an intuitive point-and-click interface really does have a positive. The trouble was always "what is intuitive", and now we have an answer: whatever the "standard" web interface is. And while you can argue about what the standard web interface consists of, we all sort of agree that it's more like Google, or Travelocity, or MCPressOnline, than it is a 5250 in a browser. That's why even my product now has an advanced edition that completely transforms the 5250 into a "web enabled" look and feel. So, that being the case, the issue is not whether we need a new UI, but whether we need to throw out the back end with the front end. This of course is throwing the baby out with the bath water, but we need to find some way to explain that, and to say it over and over in simple phrases that the NTITDMs will grasp. Joe

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        • #19
          The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community

          ** This thread discusses the article: The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community **
          And as you get to the crux of the issue, there is so much to say, but how do you say it simply to get the point across? I know you have a column in the works on it, so good luck. There's a lot you raise that everyone here probably has something to say about. You have stated the user interface philosophy often and implemented it. The user interface can range from a green screen through a browser through Java through a thick client. There are appropriate apps for all and it shouldn't matter when the infrastructure is there on the AS/400 to output to any and all of them. I think there's a call for a lower level infrastructure in our programming that builds in user interface independence, and it certainly would include something in OS/400 that overrides or multitasks EXFMT but also certainly not limited to that. It should be as common to the infrastructure as multiple languages are in an ILE program. It would be OS/400, not Websphere, and that's where IBM is letting us down, in my opinion throwing us to the wolves. But I digress. Here is the funny thing about all this talk about browsers being the intuitive business solution to replace the green screen. Windows is eating our lunch and they are doing it with thick, rich, powerful, real GUI programs. You don't hear all this nonsense about browsers from them. All you hear is the sound of chomping as they eat our lunch. IBM and people from IBM systems are the ones that talk this way, IBM with Websphere, and the IBM oriented crowd does it apparently because they come from a terminal screen background and see browsers as some kind of ubiquitous green screen that's white and displays text in different colors and fonts and sizes and sort of shows graphics in odd places, based on the whims of HTML rendering. Basically they see it as a substitute for a terminal. But you never hear the people that count, users, saying that that is the way to conduct their business transactions. They use real Windows programs with powerful components to do work that we can't seamlessly integrate with a browser or even a Java screen. I described such integration before that constitutes a real and productive desktop, but all that ever came from IBM was terminal oriented web pages. Meanwhile the successful ERP's had at least semi thick clients that integrated with desktop programs such as Office. Browsers are a perfect complement for accessing content, but anyone who has ever filled out a form in a web page should know that a web page is not the place to conduct internal complex business transactions. For that matter, I described a spreadsheet type subfile that would eliminate the ridiculousness of copying data to Excel, often to multiple spreadsheets, and working with it offline while the data changes even as they work. There may be something in IBM's Lotus spreadsheet code that works through Websphere against AS/400 data directly, but I haven't seen anyone talk about this natural use of working with data integrated with other AS/400 processing, something that is actually intuitive. Yes, Oracle and Peoplesoft did release browser based versions of their software, but I have seen nothing but kicking and screaming from the people that have to use it. Rich clients are eating our lunch because that's how you make a leap in productivity. The main problem with client/server is that the Windows people didn't know how to write business logic servers like we and the mainframers have done for decades and instead dropped their logic in inscrutable places behind buttons. The resulting mess was a catastrophe, but because of bad architecture, not rich clients. The subfile concept is the key to our success, and could and should have been extended to rich clients and office productivity programs such as spreadsheets, and browser web pages for that matter. The interface shouldn't matter. Centralized business logic and data does. We should have all those interfaces at our disposal, from one programming platform integrated with OS/400. Anything less is constantly churning AS/400 IBM product managers pushing the AS/400 as little more than a simple shell for Unix, Linux, and Windows, something nobody in their right mind in the real world would even consider doing. But that's what IBM has done to us. I started to pose a thought experiment of considering what browser interface app could be considered to have been developed more effectively than an equivalent system on the AS/400, and then I thought, dagnab it, no, one of these IT luminaries tell us of a system they did more effectively than we have, and I'll post this example for them to beat. I and another programmer designed and developed a jobs site, JOBS/400, that had every advanced feature found on job sites at the time, things like multiple resumes, multiple searches, instant matches on every posting with immediate email notification of a match of interest, matching within x miles of a city or zip code or by state or country, full text keyword search criteria, and browser administration by the site owner of job matching criteria to add or change any criteria that could be dreamed up at any time with no programming changes to web pages or files. How long did it take two programmers to sit down with the clients, a software vendor and competitive rag to this one, nail down the requirements, write it, test it, and deliver? Three months. From scratch. It ran without a crash for two years with maybe a dozen lines of code changed and no file changes. I challenge any webhead to beat that with any system of comparable complexity. How did we do it? With RPG. Sure, we did the admin server in Java with the AS/400 Java classes to showcase the flexibility of the system. There were ILE RPG, RPG III, and Java server programs all interoperating against web pages. But I tested every function of the servers with green screens. The servers didn't know or care what the display was, and they shouldn't. The key was RPG native I/O and subfile style programming. I assure you it was a ton lighter than Domino and could have handled any number of times more users than Domino on the AS/400 does, and that has been measured at more than 10,000 concurrent users. That should be our message, but instead very large corporations down to fairly small companies run day in and day out with efficient programs against corporate data, operations on data so large that an SQL just hangs, billion record files. But our story doesn't get told. It just keeps working quietly, untold. rd

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          • #20
            The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community

            ** This thread discusses the article: The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community **
            Here is the funny thing about all this talk about browsers being the intuitive business solution to replace the green screen. Windows is eating our lunch and they are doing it with thick, rich, powerful, real GUI programs. You don't hear all this nonsense about browsers from them. All you hear is the sound of chomping as they eat our lunch. That's not really true anymore, Ralph. More and more Windows packages have browser interfaces. And the browser is the UI of choice if platform independence is really an issue, which is the primary argument against the iSeries. Of course, it's obvious that moving from the iSeries to Windows is making you more platform dependent rather than less, but common sense has litle or no say in our industry right now. Anyway, if you're dead set on thick client, I suggest taking a look at the Rich Client Platform (RCP) of Eclipse. It's as powerful as Windows, yet runs fast and clean on all major platforms, including Mac. Joe

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            • #21
              The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community

              ** This thread discusses the article: The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community **
              Joe Pluta wrote: The browser is ubiquitous and thus the interface requires no additional software. This is one reason (among many) why the c/s model is a faulty premise just waiting for a conclusion. I agree that the browser provides a standard. Whether or not you can call that an interface standard or not is still up for grabs, but the browser as an I/O interactive comes with its own standards despite variations within browser choices. I disagree with IBM's approach to an AS/400 interface. There are at least five IBM tools to transform current running applications:
                [*]Webfacing[*]HATS[*]CA for the Web[*]Host Transform[*]5250 Gateway[/list]But none of these really provide an IDE from which native programs may be written. Here is my proposal or challenge to Toronto labs:
                BDA
                Browser development Aid: This would be a Windows based tool that would be a cross between SDA and MS Frontpage, and just as easy to use. RPG and COBOL would have a new file type. Instead of Workstation or Transaction, you would have BROWSER. There could be a few more options for MOUSE events, and PORTALS, but basically you still would have transaction oriented logic that is the nub of just about all browser applications. I really don't want to hear that Websphere and VARPG are already there and that's my IDE. It's just not sanguine. The Websphere studio is kludgy to use at best, and counter-intuitive at worst. Currently I could far more easily use .NET with ODBC to insert a DB2/400 data into forms and then generate an ASP, than I could use WDSC to perform a similar function. My challenge would be to bring back an object (let's call it BRWF instead of DSPF) into nativeland where it can be handled by a native program. Dave

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              • #22
                The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community

                ** This thread discusses the article: The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community **
                An interesting challenge to Toronto, Dave. I think the first thing we all must understand and acknowledge is that the browser interface is a weak substitute for the full 5250 green screen interface with mouse, menuing, and window support. After all, that was a Windows program, and it could take advantage of a real GUI interface to map our business solutions. I have chellenged the premise of a browser as suitable ubiquitous interface from the beginning, and each passing day only confirms that the browser as interface is wrong and a failure. One only has to read outide the IBM world to know this. It is an utter failure, but IBM has dropped us into the big blue with it tied to our hands and we are going down with it. Everyone else knows this. Microsoft added mini Windows capabilities into its Windows browser and every app of any complexity required those capabilities. We saw this in the IE 5+ required for e-commerce websites, and that was just for consumers. We are not even talking about business users trying to complete complex business transactions there, and it was insufficient without using Windows. It is clear that the solution to map terminal screens to a browser is there only because it is easy. Easy doesn't cut it to win business. Given that the browser has no more capabilities than full Windows 5250 emulation, the current DDS keyword set should already be sufficient or close to what is needed for generating user interface independent screens, such as 5250 green screens, the browser, and richer client interfaces such as Java, Windows, and KDE. Additional keywords would help richer interfaces do more work, but wouldn't be required. The key is not how pretty the interface is, the key is integration. One of the ironies of our failed experiment is that the browser provides less integration that even a Windows 5250 emulation program. At least it was a Windows program, and thus the designers could build in integration with the outside world with it. But that world was Windows, the world of our business users, the world where people perform their work, the world that chooses what to buy and what interface to work with. It is the lowest common denominator mentality of IBM that brought us to this point, a world where the lowest powered display and the lowest powered database access is their choice because it is easy and runs anywhere. Our business users don't have anywhere, they have somewhere, and that somewhere is Windows, and they will buy the most powerful solutions provided for their somewhere. We have to provide that powerful solution, and it requires a user interface that integrates with the rest of the world, be it Windows COM, Java JNI, Linux KDE/Gnome, Unix X-Windows, sockets, and even other 5250 sessions open on our interface. Integration is what people are looking for, not a pretty display. We are not providing either. Whoever does will win, and for my career I hope we at least stay in the game. rd

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                • #23
                  The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community

                  ** This thread discusses the article: The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community **
                  Ralph Dougherty wrote: I think the first thing we all must understand and acknowledge is that the browser interface is a weak substitute for the full 5250 green screen interface with mouse, menuing, and window support If that's the case (and I'm not saying that it is), then what is needed is enhanced 5250 and telnet support. IBM already provides this capability with an add-on product, and there are many other good emulators that go a bit beyond screen scraping. (Has anyone worked with BOS morph master?). The first thing would be to make basic enhancements to the 5250 interface. I have been advocating this for years. I think that it can be done, and can be done easily without disrupting existing code. We already have pull-downs, radio buttons, and check boxes (SNGCHC & MLTCHC keywords). Here are some other 5250 possibilities:
                    [*]More colors[*]Font and Font size choices with mixed font capability on the same screen.[*]Menu bar positioning.[*]Multiple fields within SFLSNGCHC , and SFLMLTCHC subfiles.[*]The ability to create a mouse button out of anything.[*]Graphic Window recall (This was actually possible with the Ultimedia product, but so hard to use that no one bothered).[/list]There's probably a whole lot more. If anyone thinks that this is just a wish list, I might remind them of the 5292-2 terminal that had these capabilities and more. You could actually draw crude graphics on the 5292-2 within the realm of 5250. To this day there are APIs that can give you more colors. There are many text based telnet terminals that allow different typestyles and sizes. These can make for a very effective presentation. The argument against such development is the page. Within terminal emulation you are limited to a maximimum fixed size screen. While screens using the WINDOWS keyword can be most any size, they must conform to the rules of the character, and cannot appear above or below the 27x132 maximum. Browser development need not have such limitations. As much as I hate to admit it, the browser can have greater flexibility. Dave

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                  • #24
                    The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community

                    ** This thread discusses the article: The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community **
                    Ralph, Whether people like it or not, HTML is the ubiquitous UI of the world and that's not going away anytime soon. If IBM tried to create their own UI for the world, it would be declared as proprietary and fail of course. What's important is that we developers use better architecture in our applications (MVC) so that the UI can be swapped out if something better does come along someday. Yes, that includes green screen. The business logic programs should never have an F-Spec WORKSTN defined in them (the "model"). Chris

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                    • #25
                      The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community

                      ** This thread discusses the article: The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community **
                      Chris, ubiquitous UI of the world for Google such as I use it is not the same as ubiquitous UI to replace the functions of thousands upon thousands of complex business transaction screens that we and ERP developers of other platforms have created over the years. Software people keep saying what you are saying, and users are saying go take a hike. They will go with a solid GUI program every time, even a green screen emulator for many functions, no matter how easy and convenient it is for IBM to say the browser is ubiquitous. You see it in every comment when dumbed down browser screens are shoved down people's throats that greatly hurts their productivity. They rebel, as they should. Software people are trying to make it easy for themselves, and they deserve to lose when they do. rd

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                      • #26
                        The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community

                        ** This thread discusses the article: The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community **
                        Dave, I have seen your excellent analysis of 5250 emulator capabilities through the years, and had that at the top of my mind when replying to your post. Concerning the question of working with BOS Morphmaster, I had the honor of prototyping some solutions back in 1998 with Izzy Gal and his team for a very large company where I was the AS/400 R&D Team Leader. I took a look at many products. I will have to say that as good as BOS is, complex green screens just were too much for a browser space, especially since that space is reduced even further by browser overhead unless taken away with F11 Full screen or equivalent. MorphMaster took one entirely different tack, that of on the fly rendering with no footprint of templates required, no screen conversions. The BOS coders are really good, and just from our protoyping feedback I saw improvements come down the pike in their product. You can't ask more from a vendor. Tne problem, which is ironic since you noted it is an advantage, is that the rendering of a complex screen with even small GUI borders is that it shoves the bottom of the screen out of sight. What some call flexibility I call loss of usefulness, the inability to see the bottom, the requirement to pull the screen up to use the bottom which often contained function key buttons or even data, and overall slowing down the user. We have discussed this here before, and some think the answer is a 1280x1024 screen. I think the answer is a native GUI base with pre-engineered complex and solidly performing screens which by the way are also now anchored in the desktop world for user control of interaction and integration, things that we need to make available and deal with in our apps in a general way, not knowing specifically what is going to be connected to what to send and receive data. We need to be an enabler and conduit of smart business use, not a generator of dumb web pages and flat files to copy into that desktop world where people finally can use their as hoc smarts to get their job done. My personal opinion is that an open source Java canvas rendering program with smarts for talking to other desktop apps through JNI to Windows COM, other JNI, sockets, and a plug in for any other kind of connectivity one may desire is the way to go. The communication with the AS/400 would replace 5250 streams with XML streams, and at that point you could have machine to machine interaction between apps, much as we do today with 5250 emulation with devices. The pettiness of what a browser can do is also performed by a Java canvas program that is essentially a superset of a 5250 emulator, and performed within the screen. HTML rendering may be be ubiquitous, but it wasn't designed to provide screen engineering. It is being misused by a software industry that is looking for cheap and easy when engineering is what we are supposed to be able to provide. The people who provide that quality engineering will get the business. rd

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                        • #27
                          The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community

                          ** This thread discusses the article: The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community **
                          Ralph, what specifically do you think HTML cannot do? It seems to me you're concentrating on some pretty crappy products. PSC/400 creates a UI that supports nearly all of the basic 5250 features, looks good, runs fast and requires no interactive tax. So what's missing? Joe

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                          • #28
                            The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community

                            ** This thread discusses the article: The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community **
                            I should add that the advanced GUI conversion programs like MorphMaster rendered to a Windows program, not a browser, and the program didn't have the overhead of the browser toolbars and still went into scrolling as they tried to render complex green screens into GUI. Rendering to a browser is even worse. rd

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                            • #29
                              The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community

                              ** This thread discusses the article: The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community **
                              Hi Joe, It's not my opinion, it's the opinion prominently noted elsewhere in IT publications. I could quote all day but the conclusion from those who analyze this is that the browser doesn't cut it. Efforts are under way to find some set of technologies to go to that will cut it. Those technologies will require use of the native desktop GUI. IBM also acknowledged this in a way when they went to Rich Client Platform away from Sun's standard of platform independent Swing, which is far more capable than HTML rendering in a browser. IBM's choice for Eclipse makes use of the native platform GUI. Their interface for the AS/400 should do the same. rd

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                              • #30
                                The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community

                                ** This thread discusses the article: The Year Ahead: Predictions for the iSeries Community **
                                A couple of more things. I notice you mentioned the interactive tax again. The first time I read it I thought you were referring to green screen to GUI conversion overhead, but then it dawned on you're referring to IBM and their "tax" on interactive processing, commonly referred to as green screens. For that alone no one who knows this should do business with IBM, and they aren't. After I read your post I returned to my desktop and other work, and I realized that all my other work is in Windows programs. No software development company besides ERP's, CRM's, and the like produces screens with a browser. And you ask what is wrong with a browser. I ask you what is wrong with every software development company in the world besides IBM and Oracle. I guess they don't have IBM's genius in understanding that a browser is what all of our software should be displayed in. And if not them, why us? rd

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