The iSeries: The Once and Future King

[J.Pluta]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

This sort of provocation is why I chose to leave the conversation. However, Duncan raises some points which I was unable to address, as I had a sick baby on my hands. Now that he's down hopefully for a bit of a nap, I can respond. After this latest personal attack, however, I shall ignore your posts, Chuck. Joe

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Joe said back to Duncan Kenzie: "I'm really done arguing here. You disagree, and people can read your posts and balance them against mine. Thanks for your input." Help me understand. When it was just us schmoes who don't know about the underpinnings of how CGI and JSP works the flames were a flying. Your keyboard must have been on fire! Now that an expert opinion based upon real world testing is presented, not theoretical knowledge, the heat in the kitchen is too hot? And, silly me, I was conceding to your views. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[R.Daugherty]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

The whole cheap PC thing is really dumb. There, I'm done too. rd

[J.Pluta]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

I am going to respond to one point. 1. Security. You can offload the web access to a cheap PC in the DMZ, thus preventing DoS attacks on your primary machine. To do this with RPG-CGI would require a second iSeries. Response. Not accurate. You can set up a firewall to allow access to standard port 80, and test inside the firewall on the same iSeries with a different port and web server instance. FACT- we do this ALL the time. DoS attacks occur on port 80. I'm really done arguing here. You disagree, and people can read your posts and balance them against mine. Thanks for your input. Joe

[J.Pluta]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Duncan, the dicussion is purely RPG-CGI vs. JSP. In that vein, here's a simple way JSP is superior: the web portion can be offloaded to a non-iSeries box. With RPG-CGI it cannot. Fair enough? Joe

[R.Daugherty]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

First, I believe CGI is a solution for any size company. We have done scaleability tests for literally thousands of hits per second on small to medium sized iSeries and i5s and CGI holds up fine. Thank you for the informative points about CGI, Duncan. Could you also bring us up to date on how CGI is implemented now on the AS/400? I have worked with another third party AS/400 web server in the past and they handled web pages within the webserver job space to get millisecond response. My understanding at the time was that the CGI process as used under Unix did not translate well under OS/400, perhaps even a job was launched per web page as I dimly recall. This went further to a generic product like Apache not scaling well to OS/400 because of that process per web page perhaps, but who knows, because IBM wouldn't make Apache available because it competed with their cash cow Websphere. In any event, what is the technical story now on CGI under OS/400 in regards to web page processes and do you have to do something special in an AS/400 specific product to overcome what something like Apache would suffer from? rd

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Ralph, Here are a couple of interesting notes about WebSmart.... 1. It can generate Java or RPG-ILE. I choose RPG. It doesn't really matter to me what gets generated, it always works. 2. In the RPG ILE code that is generated the HTML and JavaScript is included in tables at the end of the program. That makes the program very portable and very, very fast. It doesn't preclude me from using includes from IFS locations if I so desire, though. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Ralph Daugherty" wrote in message news:6b229b3b.50@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > WebSmart by BCD is programmed in a pc based ILE. When a program is > generated from the ILE it is an RPG ILE program. It is a CGI program. When > I look at the free form RPG that is produced it is very clever and very > efficient. Does that answer your question? Or did you have something else > in mind. > > Yes, that answers my question, Chuck. Thanks for the info and anecdotes. > As I think I posted here awhile back, I saw a Q&A with BCD on the web > doing some related research and they were good answers to tough questions. > > rd

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Joe said: "I feel badly for you" when the chosen way wasn't his. Then Joe also claimed: "(my) tone was less professional than I would have liked" Pity is a condescending way of showing superiority. While you try to rise above the rubble, you're still deep in it. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Joe Pluta said the following on 3/30/2005 5:10 PM: > What if there was a free, relatively low-feature "JSP Starter Kit" > taht allowed you to quickly knock together a couple of screens that > talked with RPG programs? It could install either as an EAR file with > WebSphere or maybe even with Tomcat. It would allow you to write a > simple program that communicated with a JSP using a data queue, and > instead of EXFMT you did a call to an API to send the data. This might work, but the web-facing UI isn't going to look very pretty. That is, web pages I create tend to look pretty lame. Then you have the issues with getting the web server going; group PTFs that have never been applied and all that good stuff. Anything is better than nothing though! --buck

[R.Daugherty]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

WebSmart by BCD is programmed in a pc based ILE. When a program is generated from the ILE it is an RPG ILE program. It is a CGI program. When I look at the free form RPG that is produced it is very clever and very efficient. Does that answer your question? Or did you have something else in mind. Yes, that answers my question, Chuck. Thanks for the info and anecdotes. As I think I posted here awhile back, I saw a Q&A with BCD on the web doing some related research and they were good answers to tough questions. rd

[D.Kenzie]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

1. Security. You can offload the web access to a cheap PC in the DMZ, thus preventing DoS attacks on your priary machine. To do this with RPG-CGI would require a second iSeries. Response. Not accurate. You can set up a firewall to allow access to standard port 80, and test inside the firewall on the same iSeries with a different port and web server instance. FACT- we do this ALL the time. 2. Scalability. Java supports multi-threading. RPG does not. As your workload grows, synchronization costs in RPG can get quite high. Also, JSPs are compiled classes and RPG-CGI requires constant re-interpretation of templates. This cost gets dramatic as your number of users increases. RESPONSE - Multi-threading comes at a high cost- the Java web server has to handle it, which is why most people have to buy a huge iSeries/i5 just to serve pages to a very few clients. RPG-CGI is just as compiled as JSP's - depending on implementation. In our implementation, HTML is embedded in the compiled object- there is no more 'interpretation' than a JSP would require to extract HTML from coding logic. 3. Flexibility. Changing a logo on a JSP is as quick as editing a text file. You may be able to do that in RPG, but it requires updating a template file with whatever non-standard template language is being used. And if the templates are pre-parsed for performance, you need to somehow let the server know a template has changed. RESPONSE - Not accurate. Changing a logo in CGI is just the same - you do NOT necessarily have to update a 'non-standard' (whatever that means) template file - you can change a text file on the IFS just the same way. 4. Cost. If cost is truly your issue, you can completely offload the web serving to a cheap (under $1000) Unix box, while keeping your business logic on the iSeries. RESPONSE - Now the issue of scaleability really comes up!!!! Joe- would you seriously want to run your enterprise like this? Are you advocating moving off the iSeries/i5 platform in favor of: compromised security/database integration/scaleability/operating system maintenance and failure possibilities/ hardware failure! This is really a specious argument, and detracts from the whole TCO value proposition of the i5. As in my earler post- a 'UI' is NOT in Java (unless you are talking about Java applets- which is not thin, and which I don't think is your intention). Compiled, native ILE objects delivering web pages through the CGI protocol are just as 'thin' (using your apparent definition) as Java servlets. Duncan Kenzie

[D.Kenzie]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Joe, Perhaps you could explain this statement for me in more detail (I've probably missed an earlier explanation: "a very thin JSP Model II veneer is the best solution for a web UI" I'm confused because: 1. JSP is server-side technology (isn't it?) 2. A 'web UI' is produced by client-side technologies, such as: - HTML - CSS - Javascript - HTML behaviors (or HTC's) - ActiveX's - XML and various XML technologies such as XSLT So isn't this really an incorrect assertion? ILE CGI can deliver these exact same client-side technologies to a browser as JSP. So how does this make JSP better? I'm still not clear on why Java is the best architecture going, either. Oh, well... Duncan Kenzie

[D.Kenzie]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Joe, You wrote: "For example, you'll be hearing more about RPG-CGI and how it can do anything JavaServer Pages (JSP) can do. This statement is wrong, and it detracts from the reality, which is that RPG-CGI is the only real solution for companies with limited resources, all in RPG." I'm not quite sure I see any proof in your article for these assertions. First, I believe CGI is a solution for any size company. We have done scaleability tests for literally thousands of hits per second on small to medium sized iSeries and i5s and CGI holds up fine. Second, you need to compare tools using CGI to tools using Java, not just the languages- the languages in themselves do nothing special. There are great tools out there (my company produces one of them) that produce CGI applications as well as those that produce Java Server pages. Third, I don't understand your comments about security. CGI programs can be written to be just as secure as any Java servlets. They can do the following: 1. Use SSL connections for secure transport of data 2. Use standard encryption methods such as 128-bit AES encryption to protect stored data on server or client 3. Use unspoofable session ids to maintain secure, persistent connections 4. Use iSeries or i5 user profile security 5. Use standard web server (Apache or original) security (authentication/authorization/protection etc.) 6. Use adoptable iSeries or i5 user profile security 7. Use iSeries or i5 native operating system-level security (objects, locks, etc.) Also- just as a further point of accuracy - CGI is not limited to RPG on the iSeries. In fact, often it's useful to use ILE C routines and incorporate these in CGI applications. Since the iSeries/i5 provide a whole wealth of languages that work in the ILE model, you have considerable flexibility over how you write CGI applications. Certainly, RPG is most often mentioned, but once you have an ILE module or service program, written in any language, you can treat it just like the black boxes you describe for Java Server pages, thus providing you with extensible, reusable functionality. It might be a little disservice to the iSeries programmer community to discount the wealth of programming routines (or black boxes) already available to us that can be used in web programming. Our company has written many web applications for many clients, in addition to producing a web development tool. A minimal amount Some of that work has been done in JSP, but we have NEVER found anything that cannot be written in ILE CGI (I'll avoid the 'RPG' red herring)- usually for a lot less money, in a manner that other developers can easily understand and work with, and with fast, efficient deployment. To reiterate, I'd like to see proof for your assertions. Duncan Kenzie

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

I got to thinking about Joe's argument that Java is superior technology and, as such, should be the choice for communicating to a web page on the iSeries. I have to say that while I may agree that Java is superior technology, it may not necessarily be the better choice. In fact, this got me to evaluating the choices I've made in my life both personally and professionally. In reflection I realize that we often choose inferior technology over the best technology. Then I reflected on why that happens and the simple answer is that technology is only one component of decision making, often it's only a minor piece of the decision making process. For example... In the late '70s I chose VHS over Betamax. I will be installing an iSeries model 520 on Saturday instead of a model 570. On my business and personal desktops I use Windows XP instead of Linux. We use Good email communicators instead of a Blackberry. I use Paint Shop Pro instead of Adobe Illustrator. My desk at work is particle board with a Formica top instead of oak with walnut inlays. I drive a Mustang convertable instead of a Porsche. I have a Kenwood in-dash MP3 CD player instead of a Kenwood in-dash DVD player. I prefer analog clocks to digital clocks. I use a Garmin GPS Palm device instead of a Pocket PC device. I went to UCLA instead of MIT. I wear dress shirts from Mervyns instead of those from Nordstrom. I live in Southern California instead of Maui. I married a Polak instead of a Swede. I think what I'm trying to say here is that decisions are made with MANY inputs and what may appear to be the wrong choice to an outsider is often the right choice when all of the requirements are measured. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Joe, I got to thinking about the underlying technology theme that we've been discussing and I'm willing to concede. You claim that Java is the best technology to communicate to/from a web page. In fact, you go so far as to say that a shop need only one person to manage the java servelets that talk between the user and the back end via a web page on the iSeries. The largest argument for this is because Java seems to scale better. OTOH, for those shops that don't need scale I'd say that native I/O in RPG would have better response time. So, here's the concession. Use WebSmart. At your choice it can generate either RPG ILE or Java. That way you can decide whether you need scale or quick response. And, there's only one language to learn no matter which way you go. Also, if the Java option is used then any file on any server on the network can be accessed, it doesn't have to be on the iSeries. By the way, WebSmart is not a simple "code generator" as you sniped yesterday. I can only assume that you were taking a jab at a competitor or you have a complete ignorance as to how WedSmart works. I think we're on the same wavelength now. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.