The iSeries: The Once and Future King

[J.Pluta]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Again, it seems you are confusing technologies- 'threading' is an inherent part of Java -WebSphere is simply 'middleware' for deploying Java. Multithreading is an inherent part of the JVM, and also an inherent part of J2EE design. Since WAS (including Express) is a J2EE servlet container, WASX must be multithreaded. It's simply that you asserted that your approach is the best, and I don't agree with that, for the technical reasons I've outlined, and based on personal experience. I've never even talked about my product. I'm talking about technology. It's clear that you are fundamentally incapable of distinguishing between product and technology, and also that you are unable to converse without derogatory nit-picking. But even there, you showed either your obfuscatory skills or your sloppiness by referring to JDK and JVM as if they were synonymous. Oh grow up. It's clear I meant the JVMs from each version. That's pure ankle-biting, Duncan. You stoop lower with each riposte. I've simply tried to refute your claim that JSP is 'superior technology' to CGI. Both have their place, depending on the business need. As others have rightly pointed out, and as I'm sure you will agree, we should all be concerned about SOLUTIONS, not TECHNOLOGY for the sake of it. And ad I've said at least five different times, this is not about business decisions. There are times when business requirements make an abacus the best choice, so basically business decisions have no relevance as to which technology is intrinsically superior. It is my assertion that from a pure technology standpoint, for the many reasons I have given, over and over again, that JSP is superior to RPG-CGI. Anyway, I sense we've reached the point of diminishing returns. You were wrong about WebSphere Express, you were wrong about the JVMs, you bring in Amazon when we're talking about RPG-CGI, you never answered my quetions on session handling such as how you keep files open (and then bizarrely you say that I didn't answer yours). This has become a monumental waste of time, and I doubt it's helping any readers, so I can sign out now. Joe

[R.Daugherty]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Thanks for the explanation of HTTP-CGI as handled by IBM now, Duncan. I thought I had seen where they did something to do a great job handling it, but wasn't sure. But for all, just to be a devil's advocate, or a devil, the third party AS/400 web server I worked with (first as a customer, then a consultant to write the JOBS/400 server which I saw up for a couple of years anyway) didn't use CGI or JSP. A server handled page requests through dataque queing, and we would launch another instance automatically if demand merited. The serving was shared as CGI daemons were described as sharing serving requests. The id was from a validated login or read only for anonymous viewing such as job searches. I called it stateless coding but a product that does that automatically would make a programmer's job easier. As far as that goes, the programming was in anything. Most was in ILE RPG but thre was an RPG/400 server and a Java server program as well. The server API's were called from tagged HTML code. It was proprietary, but pure RPG business programming with all web stuff as pages in IFS. I think that's the best approach, I don't care who the vendor is, but it should be a standard from IBM for the i5. I wrote an entire jobs site server backend from scratch in 12,000 lines of code in three months using it, and had every advanced feature of jobs sites you can think of. On the other hand, someone else did the web pages that didn't know the AS/400 or RPG. But isn't that the way it should be? rd

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

A real life experience... I have a programmer on my staff who is so good it's a little scarey. He's amazingly bright. This programmer worked full time for a toy company (does Barbie ring a bell?) during the day and part time for me in the evening. At the toy company they did everything in WebSphere and Java. Here he uses WebSmart. He tells me that it literally takes him about 4-5 days to do in Java what he can do in a couple of hours in WebSmart. He hated the Java experience. In fact, he likes the WebSmart environment so much he bet his job on it. He now works full time for me during the day. It's the toy company's loss. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[D.Kenzie]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Many companies run WebSphere Express. But this sort of statement is clearly beginning to show your stripes. You're here to bash WebSphere, and me, and my product, and my company. Joe, sorry you feel that way. I thought we were engaged in a debate about your assertion that JSP is superior technology to RPG-CGI. I am not here to bash you, you or your company. I just found the discussion interesting, in light of the exchanges between you and Chuck. I suggest you get your facts straight. SQL pooling is not a scalability concern (unless you use JDBC, which I do not recommend), and threading is definitely part of any version of WebSphere. What actually do you know about Java and J2EE? Actually, I didn't state these as 'facts' - I said they were 'my understanding'. I'm sure I do not know as much as you about Java. I do have developers who work for me who do, though, and I rely on their experience and opinions to form my own. Again, it seems you are confusing technologies- 'threading' is an inherent part of Java -WebSphere is simply 'middleware' for deploying Java. Here we go. It's all because you think I'm a competitor. Honestly, dude, we're completely different. PSC/400 web-enables legacy systems with a single command; WebSmart is used primarily to build applications from scratch. Different marketplace entirely. In fact, I'm sure that PSC/400 converted applications could interact with the JSP/servlet version of your tool. You ought to be looking for synergy rather than wasting time trying to bash technology, especially a technology you sell. I've already refuted your first statement. Secondly, I do look for synergy all the time. With regards to us competing, I wrote of 'mindshare' - any time the words 'web' and 'iSeries' are used together, vendors are competing for mindshare. For example, we are always having to educate prospects on the distinctions between screen-scrapers and web development tools. Besides- so what if we compete? I don't bash my competitors- and I'm not bashing your product. You have an approach that is different from ours. It's simply that you asserted that your approach is the best, and I don't agree with that, for the technical reasons I've outlined, and based on personal experience. This is where I get confused. You're here screaming about how CGI is superior to JSP, and yet you sell JSP to your customers. I don't get it. Sorry to confuse you. We provide a solution that DOES provide synergy, and provides options to our clients. Some are concerned about the 'standards' that Java offers, some are concerned more about things they are familiar with. Some want to leverage existing RPG code, some want to produce more portable code. We give them the option. Remember, I've never asserted that CGI is better than JSP - I've simply tried to refute your claim that JSP is 'superior technology' to CGI. Both have their place, depending on the business need. As others have rightly pointed out, and as I'm sure you will agree, we should all be concerned about SOLUTIONS, not TECHNOLOGY for the sake of it. So even though I disagree with your claim, from a business perspective there are many times when JSP is a better business fit for our clients. That's why we've invested significant R&D $'s in the last 8 years in Java ideas. I state clearly that I prefer JSP Model II over RPG-CGI, and then proceed to back up my opinion with facts. You, on the other hand, post allegations about the failings of Java which you cannot back up, and when challenged, you avoid responding. OK- if you 'prefer' it- fine. I remain unconvinced you've backed it up with facts. You have not responded to my explanation about session handling, or explained why some of the biggest e-commerce sites continue to use a CGI or CGI-like model for delivering web content (like Amazon or Yahoo! for example). I stand by my opinions regarding the complexities and costs of running full-blown WebSphere, although I concede you can run WebSphere Express for demo sites like yours, based on what I've seen there. I believe the only thing I avoided responding to was your comment re IBM and Sun's JVM's being the same. But even there, you showed either your obfuscatory skills or your sloppiness by referring to JDK and JVM as if they were synonymous. I'm happy to wait for the opinion of others better informed on the inconsistencies of Java than me, though. Oh. My. Gosh. You're serious!?! Oh man. Please, go ahead and tell Bob Cozzi about his tenuous objectivity and his free advertising (LAUGHING!). Please! Tell me what he says! I'm dying to hear it! Well, it sounds like we probably agree on one opinion :> And, I'm glad I can brighten your day with a laugh! Regards, Duncan

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

> Joe said: "why JSP is better than RPG-CGI. It can be moved off the > machine," Here's an aside. Using "generic" code that can run anywhere reduces your iSeries to the level of PC. Here's the fact behind the myth that one should keep in mind... Most iSeries installations have legacy code. We're doing web based development to ENHANCE what we have. We aren't about to replace all of our legacy code with Java, WebSphere, WebSmart or anything else. This development uses existing files and enhances existing applications, it doesn't replace it. There's never a thought of ever developing applications that can be moved to another platform. That's something vendors do to hedge their bets so they can increase market share and/or dump the iSeries if they feel the market doesn't warrant it. Yes, you'll find iSeries shops run by non-iSeries knowledgeable people and the "move it elsewhere" mantra will strike up a chord with them. When vendors talk about moving code elsewhere to true iSeries users the vendor has just lost their audience. As an iSeries user I want vendors committed to the iSeries. Vendors such as ASNA and other hedge-betters will get less and less business from customers like me. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Joe: "But this sort of statement is clearly beginning to show your stripes. You're here to bash WebSphere, and me, and my product, and my company." Could this be rhetoric?

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Joe said: "Yeah, it's standard stateless technology. However, if you've got an order entry program that accesses 30 files, then you need to open all 30 files for every request (not to mention loading and storing all the temporary data)." Ah, but if you had been listening that seems to scale just fine, blowing a hole in your scaling theory. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Joe said: "An IDE is different from a code generator, as I hope I've made clear. IDE = GOOD, CODE GENERATOR = BAD. " Good, you've finally come around! Since I'm sure you've done your extensive homework (geez even I got slimed by that heavy sarcasm ) you know that WebSmart IS a full IDE. ALL work is done within the WebSmart IDE on a PC. A developer can do everything never knowing there's an iSeries. In fact, it's designed to allow a developer to develop on a laptop on a plane. Of course they couldn't execute the application without the iSeries but everything else can be done. It is NOT a code generator. It does, however, create RPG as an intermediate step to getting to a compiled module. I never see the RPG generated. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Joe said: "why JSP is better than RPG-CGI. It can be moved off the machine," Only a software vendor would care about that. I'm committed to the iSeries and will be for a long time. It's clear why YOU are committed to Java, what's not clear is why we should be. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Duncan said: "I also doubt that any enterprise would be willing to run their mission-critical businesses on WebSphere Express" It appears from IBM's recent 180 degree turn that WebSphere isn't making a significant dent, express or not, in the real world. I know I don't have the inclination or budget to train operations staff in WebSphere. I also don't want to waste CPWs on something that doesn't enhance my company's processes. I know that when I attend COMMON and attend WebSphere classes (yes I wanted to know what I was missing) it seemed every other attendee I talked to was in my same situation. They knew about WebSphere, were interested, maybe even fired it up because that's all IBM ever talked about, but none of them had anything running on it. The customer names of WebSphere users that IBM always dropped at these meetings were always "big name" companies. Maybe those companies have resources to throw around but I simply don't. I kinda felt like a teenager not doing drugs. Surely all my friends were doing them, maybe I should also. What I didn't know was most, if not all, of my friends didn't do drugs either. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Joe asked: "Okay, I'll need more education here. I have 20 people doing order entry simultaneously. They all need persistent connections, since this is an order entry application with lots of temporary data." Our web serving using WebSmart has ZERO persistant connections. We have a Purchase Order system written entirely in WebSmart. Up to 999 lines per purchase order, up to 99 comment lines per PO line. Works flawlessly. No persistance. Joe asked: " How many CGI jobs do I need for this? " We have more than 1,000 users using our websmart programs. There's never more than about 10 jobs running in QHTTPSVR to support these web pages users. Joe, I think some extended homework time is in order. You may be relying on stale knowledge about how CGI works. It may be time for you to bone up a little. Joe claimed: "It depends on what you mean by tool. An IDE such as the JDT in WDSC is fine (and indeed, almost mandatory). " From the time I click on the WSDc icon until I have a usable screen is over a minute. That's fine? (BTW, I've since removed WSDc from my PC as it is slow and a huge hog.) And, WSDc is not intuitive, it requires training. From the time I click on the WebSmart icon until it's in a usable state is 1.5 seconds. It gets better. From the time I select the option to create a new application that works like parent/child order entry application until the time I can excute the running application is approximately 5 minutes. I then have a working program that can be modified as necessary. Never a "blank page" syndrome. Joe asked: "How many CGI jobs do I need for this? If I only need five, where is the persistent session data stored?" In a WebSmart container called a Smurf. It's like a server side cookie which includes expiration. Joe, this is exactly what I've been saying. You condemn other solutions claiming that Java is the holy grail without knowing anything about the other solutions. It just reduces, dramatically, your credibility as a subject expert. And, that's unfortunate. It's also unfortunate that you have a podium from which to preach without fair and balanced knowledge of the subject matter. Joe asked: "How do you keep files open between calls?" They aren't, why would they be? Joe said: "you need to quickly dial down the rhetoric." Now you're being a comedian? chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[J.Pluta]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Joe, I've just been to your site- hadn't been there in a while, must admit, although I do like to keep up with what the competition is doing. It appears most of your pages are static HTML, not requiring any JSP at all. They're still being served via WebSphere, which you said specifically could not run a model 270. Your demo app (the trains one) is apparently JSP - but it's a pretty small data set, with small pages being delivered. I also do pilots for all my prospects from this machine. I run all of my PSC/400 demonstrations through this box, and it runs just fine, thank you. As to small pages being delivered, that's what is SUPPOSED to happen in a web application . I also doubt that any enterprise would be willing to run their mission-critical businesses on WebSphere Express- but that's possibly just my ignorance. Many companies run WebSphere Express. But this sort of statement is clearly beginning to show your stripes. You're here to bash WebSphere, and me, and my product, and my company. My understanding, though, is that the benefits of scaleability that are much-touted (SQL pooling, threading, etc.) are only supported in the full implementation of the WebSphere WAS- which wouldn't run on your tiny AS/400. I suggest you get your facts straight. SQL pooling is not a scalability concern (unless you use JDBC, which I do not recommend), and threading is definitely part of any version of WebSphere. What actually do you know about Java and J2EE? BTW - I'd say we are in competition. Even though our products use different technological implementations, we are competing for the same mindshare. Here we go. It's all because you think I'm a competitor. Honestly, dude, we're completely different. PSC/400 web-enables legacy systems with a single command; WebSmart is used primarily to build applications from scratch. Different marketplace entirely. In fact, I'm sure that PSC/400 converted applications could interact with the JSP/servlet version of your tool. You ought to be looking for synergy rather than wasting time trying to bash technology, especially a technology you sell. This is where I get confused. You're here screaming about how CGI is superior to JSP, and yet you sell JSP to your customers. I don't get it. I respectfully ask: have you ever considered that this puts you in a tenuous position regarding your objectivity as a writer? Nah, I'm not too worried about my objectivity. Objectivity does not mean having no opinion, it just means keeping an open mind and forming opinions based on facts. Let's compare objectivity, shall we? I state clearly that I prefer JSP Model II over RPG-CGI, and then proceed to back up my opinion with facts. You, on the other hand, post allegations about the failings of Java which you cannot back up, and when challenged, you avoid responding. Not quite sure where that leaves things, but between you and me, I don't think I'm gonna worry about being tenuous. At the very least, it seems to me you should give serious consideration to revising your mini-bio that appears at the end of your articles, since this is in effect a free advertisement for your products (IMHO). Oh. My. Gosh. You're serious!?! Oh man. Please, go ahead and tell Bob Cozzi about his tenuous objectivity and his free advertising (LAUGHING!). Please! Tell me what he says! I'm dying to hear it! Oh thank you for a great laugh... Joe

[J.Pluta]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

I don't understand your point here. We DO have a firewall device, between the outside world and iSeries, AND we are running RPG-CGI !! We also have a DNS server, etc. This is simple network topology. Let's see if I can explain this. Even with your firewall, port 80 of your iSeries is open to the Internet (through the firewall), and thus is available for a DoS attack. By offloading the web service to an attached appliance such as a Unix box, only the Unix box is exposed to the Internet; the production iSeries has NO OUTSIDE CONNECTION. Is this clear? I'll educate you. It's done using session ids - a method used by Coldfusion, ASP, PHP and any CGI programming method. You've seen them at many commercial sites (such as Amazon and Yahoo) that you visit. They usually are identified with a parameter called SID. We call them by some other parm name (doesn't matter). You simply pass this unique id back and forth in the url's, thus accomplishing persistence. This is 'standard' technology. Yeah, it's standard stateless technology. However, if you've got an order entry program that accesses 30 files, then you need to open all 30 files for every request (not to mention loading and storing all the temporary data). That's why I keep saying, over and over again, that the technology required depends on the application. Simple queries where you're reading a bunch of data from a couple of files is no big deal. Transaction processing where you validate against dozens of different files is a different story. This is where the scalability issue comes into play. Persistence overhead can add up quickly. BTW - if you are keeping product names out of it, let's keep yours out of it too. I mentioned my COMPANY WEBSITE, Duncan. And at that I got it wrong: it's http://www.plutabrothers.com. That's once in some 20 posts, in direct response to your incorrect and misleading statement. As they'd say in Law and Order, you opened up the door, counselor. Ok- feel free to disagree. I'll be interested to see what other readers think of my point. Unacceptable. On challenge, either back up your point or retract it. I'm saying you are absolutely wrong, and guilty of spreading FUD. Also - you've mentioned your (non-competing) product again. Oh go soak your head. I've been quite careful to avoid mentioning PSC/400 or what it does, but if you keep complaining about it, I'll keep mentioning it. I don't see anything too strong about the term 'enamored' - especially in light of your responses which make such bold assertions as 'JSP is the best technology'. And I do, especially with the assertion that it was due to IBM marketing. My advocacy of JSP Model II is based on over 25 years of architecture experience, at the highest levels of the midrange market. Can you confirm if you have given products like WebSmart as much investigation as you have certain Java products? If not, I rest my case. There is no case. Java is not a product, it's a technology. RPG-CGI is a technology. WebSmart is a product. I'm comparing technologies, and I'll say it again: JSP Model II beats RPG-CGI hands down in multiple areas. Also, my company has just as much experience with Java as you do. In fact, we produce JSP application! It's your basic premise that JSP is 'superior' to RPG-CGI on the i5 that we are debating here. Actually, based on your comments (such as the completely misleading comments about running on a model 270, or the incorrect statement that JVMs run very differently on different platforms), it's clear to me that you don't have a lot of Java experience, especially on the iSeries. If you are indeed selling Java expertise, I assume others in your company are better informed. I have read a considerable amount of what you have written. Have you ever 'read' any code I have written? Or any articles I have written? I've never seen a single article published by you that didn't have "WebSmart" in it. You may be stridently opposed to converting RPG to Java, but you _have_ advocated using another platform other than the iSeries in this discussion, even if only for testing. I've advocated doing everything on the iSeries. I see this as an inconsistency on your part. Actually, Duncan, I have and always will advocate using the best tool for the job. I personally believe that all things being equal the best architecture is JSP Model II running on WebSphere Express on the iSeries using RPG as the application controller and the business logic server. However, based on constraints such as machine capacity, security or other concerns, there are times when offloading the web serving workload is a necessity; that requirement alone makes RPG-CGI a bad decision. On the other hand, for shops which cannot or will not ever consider doing anything in Java, RPG-CGI is a reasonable alternative. In those cases, vendor tools such as yours may be a benefit. iI just don't see your point here. I do not see whether a language is strongly typed like Java or loosely typed like Javascript has to do with anything web related. Actually JavaScript is reasonably good for HTML generation, since it's an OO language. The interpreted nature and loose typing allows some interesting capabilities, but makes it more difficult to debug. But either one beats RPG hands down for string generation. Anyway, our (not_to_be_mentioned) language has strong typing, but you apparently dismiss that as inferior technology. I do not have enough information to appropriately judge the technology of your tool. Not sure where I mentioned WebSmart Oh please. "Solutions provided by vendors such as BCD." I suppose you meant their Mahjongg package. Joe

[D.Kenzie]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

Okay, now you're simply incorrect. Feel free to go to http://www.plutbrothers.com at any time. This website runs entirely on a TINY little 370 CPW model 270, and was built completely using nothing but WDSC. There are lots of people running WebSphere on a model 270. I don't know where you get your information, but it's way wrong. Joe, I've just been to your site- hadn't been there in a while, must admit, although I do like to keep up with what the competition is doing. It appears most of your pages are static HTML, not requiring any JSP at all. Your demo app (the trains one) is apparently JSP - but it's a pretty small data set, with small pages being delivered. I also doubt that any enterprise would be willing to run their mission-critical businesses on WebSphere Express- but that's possibly just my ignorance. My understanding, though, is that the benefits of scaleability that are much-touted (SQL pooling, threading, etc.) are only supported in the full implementation of the WebSphere WAS- which wouldn't run on your tiny AS/400. Meanwhile, we have clients quite happily running scaleable apps in CGI - without having to buy WebSphere from IBM and without having to do massive hardware upgrades. BTW - I'd say we are in competition. Even though our products use different technological implementations, we are competing for the same mindshare. I respectfully ask: have you ever considered that this puts you in a tenuous position regarding your objectivity as a writer? At the very least, it seems to me you should give serious consideration to revising your mini-bio that appears at the end of your articles, since this is in effect a free advertisement for your products (IMHO). I'll end this post with a sample of what I'd love to put on every post I write: Respectfully, Duncan Duncan Kenzie is the founder and chief architect of ExcelSystems Software Development Inc. He has been working in the field since the late 1970s and has made a career of extending the IBM midrange, starting back in the days of the IBM System/3. Duncan has used ILE extensively, especially as the base for ProGen Plus, a highly successful iSeries Application Generator and ProGen WebSmart, the only product that can deploy legacy and new systems to the Web as CGIs or JSPs. Duncan is also the author of several technical articles on the iSeries and is a speaker at COMMON. You can reach him at duncan@excelsystems.com

[D.Kenzie]

The iSeries: The Once and Future King

But the point is that you CANNOT have a firewall device when running RPG-CGI unless that firewall is another iSeries. I don't understand your point here. We DO have a firewall device, between the outside world and iSeries, AND we are running RPG-CGI !! We also have a DNS server, etc. This is simple network topology. Okay, I'll need more education here. I have 20 people doing order entry simultaneously. They all need persistent connections, since this is an order entry application with lots of temporary data. How many CGI jobs do I need for this? If I only need five, where is the persistent session data stored? How is it saved? How is it restored? How do you keep files open between calls? Ok- I'll educate you. It's done using session ids - a method used by Coldfusion, ASP, PHP and any CGI programming method. You've seen them at many commercial sites (such as Amazon and Yahoo) that you visit. They usually are identified with a parameter called SID. We call them by some other parm name (doesn't matter). You simply pass this unique id back and forth in the url's, thus accomplishing persistence. This is 'standard' technology. There are optimization techniques you can use, depending on the application, to manage file opens/closes. Okay, now you're simply incorrect. Feel free to go to http://www.plutbrothers.com at any time. This website runs entirely on a TINY little 370 CPW model 270, and was built completely using nothing but WDSC. There are lots of people running WebSphere on a model 270. I don't know where you get your information, but it's way wrong. I apologize - this is the first time I've heard of this. Are you running the full WAS, or WAS express? BTW - if you are keeping product names out of it, let's keep yours out of it too. I use a product called Web Roller. Wonderful product, lets you build scripts, even use data sent to you in your response (really important for session testing). Again, though, we need to be sure what the jobs are doing. That's why I try to separate online transaction processing programs from data query. I'm still waiting to see how you get 20 persistent session from 5 jobs Our load tester does the same thing. Same thing with sending data in the response. As I mentioned before, we handle online transaction processing the way I described, with session id's. We have customers who banks, insurance companies, multinational music companies with online transaction processing using this technique. I believe in IDEs, I do not believe in code generators. Not sure what your intention is by this statement, but I have a suspicion. Hope I'm wrong. And, FWIW - I'm not discussing 'code generators' I absolutely disagree.JVMs are completely consistent. Please name an instance where, for example, Sun's JDK1.4 differs from IBM's JDK 1.4. Application servers tend to differ, which is why you need to be careful not to use vendor extensions, but that's pretty easy to do. Programs converted by PSC/400 run under Tomcat just as well as they do under WebSphere. Ok- feel free to disagree. I'll be interested to see what other readers think of my point. Also - you've mentioned your (non-competing) product again. Duncan, if you'd like to continue this conversation, you need to quickly dial down the rhetoric. I am not "overly enamored" of Java, I am an advocate of JSP Model II as the best browser interface for the iSeries. IBM did not market this technology to me, Sun did. I've been coding Java for nearly 10 years now, long before IBM got into the game. In fact, I taught this architecture TO IBM in Israel around the turn of the century. So, I'd really appreciate it if you give me a little more respect than calling me an "enamored writer". I don't see anything too strong about the term 'enamored' - especially in light of your responses which make such bold assertions as 'JSP is the best technology'. Can you confirm if you have given products like WebSmart as much investigation as you have certain Java products? If not, I rest my case. Also, my company has just as much experience with Java as you do. We had a commercial iSeries Java product in 1998. In fact, we produce JSP applications with our tool! It's your basic premise that JSP is 'superior' to RPG-CGI on the i5 that we are debating here. As to the superiority of the IBM platform, did you even read the article? Have you read anything I've ever written? I am perhaps the most ardent advocate of the iSeries writing today. Not only that, I am stridently opposed to converting RPG code to Java, and I insist that RPG is the best language available for writing business logic. I have read a considerable amount of what you have written. Have you ever 'read' any code I have written? Or any articles I have written? Or reviewed my products (I've been writing S/38 - i5 commercial software since 1982, and, like you, started on a S/3 - in 1977). You may be stridently opposed to converting RPG to Java, but you _have_ advocated using another platform other than the iSeries in this discussion, even if only for testing. I've advocated doing everything on the iSeries. I see this as an inconsistency on your part. It is, however, less suited to static problem sets like HTML generation. OO languages flourish in environments where the rules rarely change; that's where you can really take advantage of the rigid typing and hierarchical nature of Java. I just don't see your point here. I do not see whether a language is strongly typed like Java or loosely typed like Javascript has to do with anything web related. Java can generate HTML, so can Javascript. Anyway, our (not_to_be_mentioned) language has strong typing, and is used to write web applications. If this confuses you, think of it this way: when you write Java, it gets compiled to bytecode that runs in the JVM. When you write RPG, it gets compiled into MI code (or intermediate code - Paul Conte would know better than me) that runs on the OS/400 vertical microcode. When you write in our language, it gets converted to an intermediate step that happens to be a combo of RPG and calls to ILE functions, which then ends up as MI code. So really the 'RPG' bit of it is a red herring. I realize this is off-topic, but I think you've sort of started another discussion by bringing strong/loose typing of languages. BTW- ever heard of functional languages, such as Haskell? And of course, you've continued to mention WebSmart, which is not the focus of this discussion. I'll wait for our specific technical answers to my comments, though, and see if we can keep this conversation on topic. Not sure where I mentioned WebSmart - I believe you brought it up in your comments about us not being competitors and in your implication that you were somehow going easy on me because I'm a vendor who advertises for one of the companies you work for. Clearly that's no longer the case! (you going easy on me, I mean.) Anyway, hopefully I've addressed your technical comments. Regards, Duncan