Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Bill wrote: > I read a little about this in the InfoWorld 12/22 Tech Watch article. > Kana > has farmed out some/most of its work on the IQ 8 package to India and > is > very happy with the results. InfoWorld's Ephraim Schwartz is doing a followup to this subject. In the Jan 5 issue, he sorta sets the table about how IT outsourcing is becoming a hot topic and shares some of Kana's viewpoints on the matter. He says that in the 1/12 issue "I'll look at how much Kana really saved and will take a deeper look into the future." Kana has stated that India is 75% cheaper. Also, Schwarts clarifies an issue we muddled from the press release. Kana used a company named HCL for the programming, not Accenture. Bill

[dacust]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

I stand corrected. Kana is a California company. The main point of what I was saying was that what they are selling is Kana IQ 8 which appears to be a software package to facilitate customer service. I didn't see where they say what role India plays.

[MCWebsite.Staff]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

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[J.Pluta]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

And in case we've all already forgotten the dead - Accenture is the renamed version of Arthur Andersen's consulting group. Joe

[J.Pluta]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

It fits some of the criteria, I guess. But I wouldn't call it a poster child for large scale development, especially in the midrange sector. First, it's not midrange, it's J2EE and .NET. If you're going to use bad technologies, I suppose India is as good a place as any to get them. Second, it's not exactly a large business application suite like ERP. The outsourced bit is primarily an email response package. I don't know how much code was actually written in India, and from what I can tell the code written was more of a tool than an application. Finally, the company isn't exactly what you call a financial powerhouse. Two years ago they announced a 1 for 10 split. At the height of the dot-com bubble, the stock was selling for 300 times what it is today. They're still operating at a loss of nearly $4 million a quarter. Their income for the first three months of 2003 is about half the same period in 2002, and the CFO just sold over half of his holdings, bringing his stake down to a paltry 10K shares. So, what's the final answer? Well, if you're saying that moving to India can help a small software company bleed out a little slower, you're probably right. But if you're using this as a testimonial for outsourcing, I'd say you might need to set your sights a little higher. Joe

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Daniel Stephens wrote: > If I read that correctly, Kana is a US/India company that is in the > business of selling help desk products. Hmmmmm, is this really a good > example of a success? An India Help Desk company? Are you referring to " By combining the vertical expertise of Accenture U.S. and India with faster and more accurate . . ."? To me this means they are using a US/India company by the name of Accenture. Bill

[dacust]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

If I read that correctly, Kana is a US/India company that is in the business of selling help desk products. Hmmmmm, is this really a good example of a success? An India Help Desk company?

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Joe Pluta wrote: > And so I ask again - are there any examples of large-scale projects > that have been outsourced that have worked? I'd be interested to see > if any have completed recently, and if so, if they were on time and > on budget. My guess based on the anecdotal evidence and the things I > see in the mailing lists is that the majority are not. Joe, This might fit your criteria: http://www.kana.com/newsevents/press...0922_kana.aspx or http://tinyurl.com/2tx72 I read a little about this in the InfoWorld 12/22 Tech Watch article. Kana has farmed out some/most of its work on the IQ 8 package to India and is very happy with the results. Bill

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Daniel, Your points are well taken. I have 3 daughters ages 14, 17 and 19. Since they were little children whenever they didn't like the events and whined, "that isn't fair," my retort was, "life isn't fair, get used to it." I believe that if you expect everything to be fair then you will live an unhappy life. However, I have balanced training with the ability to understand that they must speak up when something is plain wrong. Like the time last year that my 16 year old was accused of "academic dishonesty" (the current euphemism for cheating) when she didn't do it. We encouraged her to take this to the dean of students to have her record expunged. She did and everything worked out. (Funny thing, once the principal heard about her case he also encouraged her. Turns out the teacher has done this before and they need to have more evidence to be able to discipline him. Tenure and unions have really tied the hands of school administrators these days.) So, my advice to one and all, life isn't fair get used to it. You will be much happier for it. And, after all, isn't that our ultimate goal? chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Daniel Stephens" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.174@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > This goes back to what I was saying earlier. It is our job as individuals to be aware of the world around us and direct our careers towards paths that will be marketable. > > Of course it is also our job to point out the error of managements ways when they pick outsourcing just because it looks cheaper in the shorty run. And to talk to our representatives about our views on visas, etc. > > But ultimatly, our lives are strictly up to us. If the game is not fair, and if we cannot find a way to change the rules to be fair, then we have to find ways to play by those unfair rules. Develop multiple skills. I have been practicing saying "Welcome to Wal-Mart, would you like a buggy?". My friends say I'm getting pretty good. > > -dan

[dacust]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

This goes back to what I was saying earlier. It is our job as individuals to be aware of the world around us and direct our careers towards paths that will be marketable. Of course it is also our job to point out the error of managements ways when they pick outsourcing just because it looks cheaper in the shorty run. And to talk to our representatives about our views on visas, etc. But ultimatly, our lives are strictly up to us. If the game is not fair, and if we cannot find a way to change the rules to be fair, then we have to find ways to play by those unfair rules. Develop multiple skills. I have been practicing saying "Welcome to Wal-Mart, would you like a buggy?". My friends say I'm getting pretty good. -dan

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Buck said: "So yes, be the best you can, but don't expect that will be a guarantee against being outsourced. Especially if you are experienced (and therefore at the top of the pay grade.)" Words to live by. There are no guarantees in this world. Even carefully picked employers can, and probably will, eventually turn sour. I've had that happen to me. However, my philosophy is to work hard and treat the company as if it were my last. But, don't be surprised, or too disappointed, if it isn't. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

I used to believe that if I was the best at my job I would be safe from outsourcing or downsizing. I no longer operate under that misconception. I very much feel that the cost of being a senior staffer works against me because it is very easy to see in a ledger, whereas the benefit of being a skilled senior staffer is much less apparent to those trying to balance the budget. So yes, be the best you can, but don't expect that will be a guarantee against being outsourced. Especially if you are experienced (and therefore at the top of the pay grade.) --buck calabro

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/techn...558743,00.html

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Bill said: "There are companies that are outsourcing their IT needs overseas purely as a means to reduce costs." Which is, of course, is a generalization. I know that corporate decision making is never that simple. More from Bill:"To generalize that the employees that have lost their jobs because of a personlaity conflict or a reduced set of skills does not apply in these circumstances. A prime example would be the relocation of Dell's Technical Support to India." A statement that, in itself, is a generalization. There's simply no way for us to know what factors were involved in Dell's decision. Were you in the decision making meetings? Bill asked:"Are you really going to try and say that the people in Texas lost their jobs because the personnel India could provide were better technologically? Or that they had better customer service skills?" I can't possibly say. I'm not naive enough to speculate on Dell's decison making process. I know, from many years experience in top level management, that these decisions are generally not snap judgements. My experience in such matters is that they are debated heavily over a period of time. The good companies look objectively at all of the pros and cons to the issue and do what appears to be in the best interest of the company. Everything I know about Dell implies they are a good company. I do spend over $1million a year with Dell and wouldn't do so if I didn't think they are on the right track. Bill also said: "The answer it was moved was to reduce costs." Well, duh. There's huge pressure from stakeholders to always reduce costs. Bill added: "And this move backfired on Dell when their Corporate Customers complained that the service received from the Indian's was substandard and totally not acceptable." All decisions have a risk factor. BTW, we are a reasonably large corporate customer of Dell and have no complaints regarding service. Beware of generalizations about companies that you read in the trade mags or on web sites. Often the trades take one or two examples and write an article implying, or letting you leap to the conclusion, that those examples represent the norm. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Sanity does exist. Good points Bill. Outsourcing is not necesarily bad. That is a good thing because I am a contractor (US citizen)(outsourced) that is working on part of a large (in house) project for a large multinational corp. And in this case it made sense for them to bring me in to utilize specific skills(ILE) I have and mentor the inhouse staff. So, all outsourcing is not bad. Nor, do I say that my circumstance is the only instance of outsourcing being good. Had this corp outsourced the whole shop to a company that used domestic or foreign (legal) workers that were not abusing any laws, that would be okay too. If this corp used illegals either outsourced or internally on visas, or intentionally, grossly abused exitsting laws that harm (legal) (tax paying) citizens and their right to the pursuit of happiness in the form of gaining legal employment....then that is bad. Shame on the Corps that do it, and shame on the politicians that write laws that abuse the citizens of any country. And shame on the citizens that think is is negative to try to bring to light wrongs that only will hurt 'all' of us in the long run. Intelligent, thoughtful conversation is not negative or whining, it is often the beginning of something good... I believe in the marketplace. With no Buts, if everyone is playing by the rules.