Outsoursing

[David Abramowitz]

Judging from the spelling and grammar, it is apparant where the software documentation is being produced. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

Outsoursing

David, It's absolutely right, I am not an English speaker/writer and not even a good programmer as most of the members. However, I am just sending the projects to the profecionals, which happened to work for a fruction of US rate. Thanks

[Guest.Visitor]

Outsoursing

David, From browsing this forum it looks like you are the one of the popular and respected members. So, let me ask you a stupid question. Why many experienced IT workers, most or many of them are high educated, just panic because of outsoursing? Where is the American enterprising spirit? I understand it's easier to work 9-5. But when the time comes to make some major changes in order to survive or to keep up the same living standards or even hopefully to make a greater profits many just panic. While others with less education and with higher enterprenual spirit see a window of opportunity. As a metter of fact some of the opportunists make a fortune. Thanks

[ACT]

Outsoursing

To prove that you're really an Indian, What is the Indian word for "outsourcing" ? The way I look at it you're very abrasive. Cool it man. My advice, polish your grammar to avoid any insult.

[David Abramowitz]

Outsoursing

Java Junior asked: Why many experienced IT workers, most or many of them are high educated, just panic because of outsoursing Panic is a word that you have attributed to the feelings of others. I do not see panic. . . . .anywhere. On one hand I see resignation, and on the other, , , anger. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

Outsoursing

kumargovindas ,nowadays it's very easy to found translation in most of the languages it's easy as never before.In addition, it has nothing to do with India or any other countries. It's just about how to make profits and save the standards of living for American IT workers. When I read some of the topics, it seems many of the members are in panic of loosing their long term and rewarding career I offered my opinion . Why don't you find a better way to distinguish the nationality of the writer. Thanks

[ACT]

Outsoursing

First of, you identified yourself as an Indian programmer. Kindly make your posting as subtle as possible to avoid touching the sensitivities of others. As you know, these are the trying times for IT American workers, so please don't fool around with your abrasive rhetorics if you're really from India. TIA

[buck.calabro@commsoft.net]

Outsoursing

>"javajuniourexpert" wrote > Why many experienced IT workers, most or many of > them are high educated, just panic because of outsoursing? Please cite your source for this assertion. If you intend to cite these forums, please remember that you may be reading posts from people who have actually lost their jobs, which isn't 'just panic'. Do you imagine that we come to work every day and weep at our keyboards, wishing that the world were't so cruel to us? Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by 'panic.' > Where is the American enterprising spirit? I understand it's > easier to work 9-5. Please cite your source for the assertion that Americans work 9-5. I can't recall EVER working that few hours. I come to work before 8.00 and leave generally after 18.00. My company forces me to take vacation time. > But when the time comes to make some major > changes in order to survive or to keep up the same > living standards or even hopefully to make a greater > profits many just panic. Let's turn this around. Imagine that you are a highly paid chemical engineer and you own a very large house, with all of your family living with you and dependent on your income. A 'major change' comes along and your job is lost to a Chinese outsourcing firm. Overnight, you lose your job, and you and your family have only enough money to pay their bills for 2 or 3 months. How will you take advantage of this 'window of opportunity?' Remember, your family depends on your income! > While others with less education and with higher > enterprenual spirit see a window of opportunity. > As a metter of fact some of the opportunists make > a fortune. Just as wealthy industrialists took advantage of the labour pool at the beginning of the Industrial Age, Indian corporations see the same opportunity to rake in the profits off the backs of their underpaid workers. Capitalism is the same everywhere. --buck

[GlenKerner]

Outsoursing

It seems to me that those of us that have either been laid off because of outsourcing or have had to deal with code written by companies that outsource are constantly defending our positions against those that are the recipient of all the outsourcing. Personally I would not have as much of a problem is the quality of work and service was equal to what we would give. I'm all for capitalism but not at the cost of quality of service. I take pride in creating code that works, answering questions with correct answers (or finding someone that has the correct answer), and coming up with functions that actually serve a business purpose. Most of the outsourced code that I have seen is buggy, not standardized (by industry standards) and some not all was written in 'spagetti' code (non-structured). How is this going to save money? Doesn't the company that outsourced the coding have to spend time and money working with their customers when the function doesn't work? Won't the company loose customers if the systems they put out are not up to industry standards? I'm tired of people that don't have the skill set to create proper applications coming in and saying that they are saving American Companies money. Is that why Dell went away from outsourcing their Corporate Help desk (and I hear rumors that all American help desk is coming back to America)? I've even read someone's post that we (American's) should get CMM 5 certification. When I did research the certification, and found out that it was created by India based companies. Why would I get certification from India when the quality of work is so poor from India. Why not get IBM Certified or ISO9000 or any of the other Standardized certification that are excepted everywhere? The bottom line is that one should judge on the quality of the work not the intial cost. If the initial cost is low but you must spend more money to correct the mistakes or to handle the complaints then where is the actual savings. Also, certifications do not guarentee quality work (I know people that can pass any certification because they memorize the books but cannot put the knowledge to practical use). Getting off my soap box and going by to my corner.

[Guest.Visitor]

Outsoursing

buck, What kind of a worker is that , which doesn't recognized the situation . People, recognized it right after the internet age or even sooner. So, I don't believe in naive IT people. They know sooner or latter the projects would go somewhere else. it's not like you described it. It's not overnight. There are lots of time to think about it and make or try different ways to support the family. When you said only a little money left for a few months. Then I am sorry for this profecional.On the back of the mind it's always should be a scenario of loosing an income, so why don't save enough, of course, if it posiable.

[Guest.Visitor]

Outsoursing

starbuck5250 said: "Imagine that you are a highly paid chemical engineer and you own a very large house" starbuck5250 followed that up with: "Overnight, you lose your job, and you and your family have only enough money to pay their bills for 2 or 3 months." That sounds like one foolish chemical engineer to me. The engineer should have spent his money on investments and savings instead of "a very large house." IMO, anyone in today's volatile world that has less than 2 years net income in liquid assets is spending their money foolishly. Better they have 5 years of net income. To spend it on "a very large house" instead of their future is an error that they must pay for if they find themselves unemployed. If they thought they could "live the American dream" without paying the price then they'll get no sympathy from me! chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[J.Pluta]

Outsoursing

"IMO, anyone in today's volatile world that has less than 2 years net income in liquid assets is spending their money foolishly." This is ignorant to the point of offense. To think that someone making $40,000 a year could somehow have $200,000 in the bank is simply ludicrous. But Chuck, I've come to understand that you live in a place where real rules don't apply. It's possible you just don't have a clue. Let's do the math, shall we? $40,000 gross income $10,000 in taxes For a net of $30,000 per year. Basic expenses: Rent/Mortgage: $1000/mo Health Insurance: $400/mo Car Payments: $150/mo Food: $200/mo Entertainment: $50/mo These are ridiculously low numbers, and still end up at $1800 a month, or about $19000 a year. Auto/Home Ins: $500/yr Christmas: $500/yr Now, we also want to include some money for college, about $1000 a year per child. So for a family of four, we're up to $22,000. That doesn't include the refrigerator going out, the new roof on the house, or the deductible on the insurance that has been rising every year. $200 a month for food means shopping entirely at budget rates and note there's no money for clothing, sports, or music. Let's be charitable and say they wear the same clothes every year and subsist on macaroni and cheese, and that everything they own is indestructible and lasts forever, and they have no medical or school expenses, and they have no hobbies, join no clubs and go on no vacations. With the $8000 left over per year, given the current interest rates on passbook savings it would take this family roughly twenty years to get to your magic figure of five times their salary in liquid assets. The truth is that most people have extraordinary (or even just ordinary) expenses that tend to wipe out the difference between their income and outgo, and they're lucky to put away 10% of their income. These people may NEVER get to five times their salary in liquid assets. Welcome to reality, Chuck. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Outsoursing

Joe said: "To think that someone making $40,000 a year could somehow have $200,000 in the bank is simply ludicrous." I agree. My original post stated 2 years of NET income, not gross. I expect if they're making $40k per year they should have liquid assets of approximately $58k. No where near the $200k you tried to extrapolate. Also, If there are "IT Professionals" in this group who have family incomes of $40k then you're right, I'm not living in reality. Joe went on to say: "Rent/Mortgage: $1000/mo" If a $40K per year family is making a mortgage payment of $1,000 then I pity the mortgage company that provides those kinds of risky loans. Joe cited more expenses of: " Car Payments: $150/mo" Another foolish habit us Americans have become accustomed to. As my father taught me, "cars should be bought not mortgaged." I've always saved for cars in advance and NEVER made a car payment. Joe also said: "Now, we also want to include some money for college, about $1000 a year per child." I'm a firm believer that the child can pay for college on their own. I paid for my entire college education at UCLA via part time jobs. It's still possible today. Living at home, a student (in California at least) can expect to pay $2500 or less for a year of college at the state university level. Even cheaper if the first two years are at a community college. My college student daughter earned over $7,000 last year working part time at Sephora at the mall. Easily enough to cover college costs. I also believe a college education paid for by the student has more value to the student. Joe chided: "Welcome to reality, Chuck." I think that the reality hits those out of work without 2 years salary in liquid assets! Overall, I was speaking to this group as a whole. Most of which are in the 50-something or higher crowd. If an "IT Professional" has been making the income of an IT professional for nigh on 30 years or more and hasn't accumulated at least 2 years salary in liquid assets then I do believe that they have been living way above their income level. Their smart investments should have paid off handsomely over the last 30 years. BTW, liquid assets include anything that can be turned into cash on short notice including IRA, 401k, equity checking account, etc. Anybody that runs out of funds in 2-3 months, such as our chemical engineer family example, is basically living paycheck to paycheck. In that case, they got way in over their head and didn't want to face the music it until it was too late. Then, they want to whine and complain to anyone within earshot. I'm not buying it. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[David Abramowitz]

Outsoursing

Chuck Ackerman wrote: If a $40K per year family is making a mortgage payment of $1,000 then I pity the mortgage company that provides those kinds of risky loans. A mortgage payment may be $1,000 but half of that (or more) might be escrow. This would be a fairly routine loan. Real-life example: My cousin who earns about $65,000 give or take, recently bought a $500,000 two-family home in Brooklyn, NY. with only 10% down. This was not a fly-by-night mortgage company. It was Citigroup. I was astounded. Then I learned that loans of this nature are the status quo as long as interest rates hover in the current neighborhood. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

Outsoursing

Junior, don't you feel like you are being taken advantage of? Working for less when we probably have the same level of education? India's advantage is that it has a high population, and lower cost of living. I can work eight hours a day, how many hours per day do your managers make you work? You may make less salary than we do, but who is getting most of the benefits? The company outsourcing to you (short term) and the owners of your company. The only opportunist is the owner of your company, getting rich off of your labor. The advantage to having programmers onsite is they can talk directly to the users who will be using the software. But then, we are probably going to keep our high salaries fixing the goofs you make, because you misunderstood the requirements.