Outsoursing

[Guest.Visitor]

Outsoursing

Unfortunately, all of the respondents had negative experience with the outsourced work. I am not trying to defend the companies, which produced this so called job. If we would turn to the history books and read a little about the American outsourcing, we will see there are at least two sides. The American workers are always unhappy and look for any opportunity to blame the outsourced producer. I agree, lots of bad work were made by third country' workers, especially when the US customers didn't design a good structure of goods quality. I think, if the same customer would hire an US company and would not have enough knowledge of the product quality, there are possibilities the finished work would be as much poor as if it was made outside. My point is, 95% it depends of the customer' requirements and project' understandings. It's not a secret; somehow, there are lousy managers. I am not discussing how they could survive. What quality we can expect from them, no meter where it was produced. In addition, companies have many non strategic projects, I guess, with the proper documentations and designs it could be done by foreigners.

[Guest.Visitor]

Outsoursing

dglawrhts, Methinks that "junior" is really the outsourcing company owner. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "dglawrhts" wrote in message news:6ae9ee83.15@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Junior, don't you feel like you are being taken advantage of? Working for less when we probably have the same level of education? India's advantage is that it has a high population, and lower cost of living. I can work eight hours a day, how many hours per day do your managers make you work? You may make less salary than we do, but who is getting most of the benefits? The company outsourcing to you (short term) and the owners of your company. The only opportunist is the owner of your company, getting rich off of your labor. The advantage to having programmers onsite is they can talk directly to the users who will be using the software. But then, we are probably going to keep our high salaries fixing the goofs you make, because you misunderstood the requirements.

[buck.calabro@commsoft.net]

Outsoursing

> starbuck5250 said: "Imagine that you are a highly paid chemical engineer and > you own a very large house" > > starbuck5250 followed that up with: "Overnight, you lose your job, and you > and your family have only enough money to pay their bills for 2 or 3 > months." > > That sounds like one foolish chemical engineer to me. The engineer should > have spent his money on investments and savings instead of "a very large > house." Hi Chuck! The situation is a stretch, but not by much. Junior made comments about the panic he's seen in various forums. I haven't seen that, but I did want to try to create a scenario where Junior could relate to the emotions that ARE being expressed. My point was to try to help Junior step into the shoes of someone who gets outsourced. Specifically, choosing a scenario which he personally might find himself in, as Indian chemical plants become obsoleted by shiny new cheap Chinese plants. The point I was trying to make was that if one follows a career, like most of us did in IT, then one has gradually built up a life style which depends upon the continuance of that career. My example used the common Indian (and Sicilian) ideal of being able to take care of your family in your own house. This didn't happen immediately after my fictitions engineer left university; it was a 15+ year process of career building. I'm not familiar with your situation Chuck, but I'm a full-time employee. Someone who thought he has a career as a techician, advisor, manager and business process analyst. I don't particularly relish the idea that that era is over, and I need to be prepared to take on consulting/contracting jobs one-by-one for the next 25 years until I retire. Along with the concept that gigs may be 6 months apart, and I need to support my family with 0 income for those stretches. I rather prefer the idea that I can rely on being able to work for one employer and receive a steady wage for my work. I think that most RPG programmers fall into my category. I guess those days are pretty much over. --buck

[Terry Winchester]

Outsoursing

"2 years net income in liquid assets" ROTFLMAO ..... you've GOT to be kidding, right? Seriously, was this posting a "troll"? Most people I know don't have anywhere near that amount of money available to them as a "liquid asset" (e.g. cash or easily convertible financial assets). Oh wait....I forgot, your a "Vice President" of some sort, right? Terry

[Guest.Visitor]

Outsoursing

starbuck5250 said: "Along with the concept that gigs may be 6 months apart, and I need to support my family with 0 income for those stretches." Many professions, especially sales professions, have had that scenario. It does make one become frugal during the fat times. starbuck5250 also said: " I rather prefer the idea that I can rely on being able to work for one employer and receive a steady wage for my work." I agree that a single employer for life or even a decade my be a thing of the past. It's pleasant to think that you never have to worry about searching for a job. But it's also what causes complacency. An employee that thinks they're set for life does less to improve and sharpen their skills. An employee that, in the back of their mind, thinks that maybe they'll be pounding the pavement will keep their skills honed. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

Outsoursing

Terry, The old saying used to be that you needed 6 months cash to survive a job search. In the 80s and also into the early 90s that would have been enough. I believe that the job searches are taking longer these days. And, often, once a job is found there is a pay cut involved. I know, I've been there. Thus, more liquid assets are required to smooth out the transition. If a person is living on a paycheck to paycheck budget then they aren't likely to survive a long outage much less a reduction in income once they find continuing work. Also, don't forget that liquid assets include 401k, IRAs and equity checking. If, by adding in all of those assets, an iSeries professional (which, by definition is probably in at least their late 40s) hasn't amassed liquid assets 2 years of NET income then they've either had some significant events in their life that has prevented it or they've just done poor asset management. The rule of thumb used to be that it takes about a month per $10k of salary to find a new permanent position. Terry said: "Oh wait....I forgot, your a "Vice President" of some sort, right?" That has nothing to do with being fiscally responsible. I had 2 years liquid assets available from the time I was 27 years old. Of course, I didn't have the Jet Skis or eat dinner out or travel. I scraped and saved every penny possible until I reached my goals. I was putting almost 30% of my GROSS income into savings and investments. Here's the bottom line. Something I tell my kids all the time. "The most important decisions you will make in your life will be made between the ages of 17 and 22. They will determine the course of the rest of your life. Incorrect decisions you make during that time may take years, even decades to undo. This includes financial decisions. Don't marry young, don't have kids early, and save and invest wisely starting at age 18 and your life will be a lot easier when you're 50." I was fortunate to have a father who impressed this upon me at an early age. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Terry Winchester" wrote in message news:6ae9ee83.19@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > "2 years net income in liquid assets" > > ROTFLMAO ..... you've GOT to be kidding, right? Seriously, was > this posting a "troll"? Most people I know don't have anywhere > near that amount of money available to them as a "liquid asset" > (e.g. cash or easily convertible financial assets). > > Oh wait....I forgot, your a "Vice President" of some sort, right? > > Terry

[David Abramowitz]

Outsoursing

Chuck, naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. The owners are much to savvy to be stirring the pot like this. Dave

[GlenKerner]

Outsoursing

Chuck, As much as I might have agreed with a lot of your posts I think you have been in upper management too long. The common programmer (like me) has been living paycheck to paycheck for over 10 years. If I were single and didn't have a family yes I could save that kind of money. But once I had gotten married had children, poof, the money was all gone. Did you forget the cost of raising 1 child? I think the national average is still 2. something children per family. With the cost of medical, medication, clothes, housing, etc. going up and our salaries not going up at the same rate, we've been loosing money over the last 10 years (average raises that I've seen are about 3% when cost of living has been about 4.5%). I would love to be able to save 50k in 2 years, then I could buy a house for my family instead of renting. I could actually take my family for a vacation instead of staying home. The reality of the economy is that most Americans regardless of their occupation are living paycheck to paycheck. There are those special few (Manager's and up) that can afford not to live paycheck to paycheck. If you don't believe me, ask around. Create a survey, I'm betting that the response you get will be right in line with what I'm saying.

[Terry Winchester]

Outsoursing

OK, so now you have narrowed the playing field to "iSeries Professionals" who are "probably in at least their late 40s". I thought you were making a generalized statement. I guess I'll have to read between the lines of your posts from now on. Thanks for enlightening me Terry

[GlenKerner]

Outsoursing

Let's factor in a very big issue. The communication issue. I've worked in a lot of different organizations and when everybody spoke the same language and similar accents there were problems with the users communicating what they needed. It usually took me going to their desk and having them show me what they were doing and then explaining what they wanted to do. How does this type of communication exist with outsourcing to another country? Yes, I've been on both sides of the fence, been part of an outsource company and been an employee that the company went to outsourcing. I can tell you that when I worked for a Consultant company and we had a contract to be the programmers we were on site, not thousands of miles away. We had direct personal contact with the users. This is how the understanding of what a project is supposed to do comes from. I can take what a user wants and design a system to what they initially tell me. I can then pass it on to any programmer and have them code it. Does the resulting project meet the requirements of the user? maybe and maybe not. Without continual contact with the user community on their projects the project is doomed to fail. Now explain to me how someone in India can sit down with a user, have the user step them through what they do and then explain what they want (the user can be anybody from the lowest clerk to the CEO or President of the company). Will the programmer (and I believe the programmer must be involved) be able to understand and communicate properly with the user? If you can say yes to this then please explain why Dell has pulled their corporate support back to the US? There a some project managers that are good and yes some that are bad. But the purpose of a project manager is not to design the project but to manage the project. The Analyst (and nowadays that is also the programmer, hence, the title program/analyst) is the one designing the project. So that means the outsource company is doing the design. You said 'My point is, 95% it depends of the customer' requirements and project' understandings. It's not a secret; somehow, there are lousy managers.' Does that mean the Analyst has no responsibility to make sure what they are designing is what the customer wants? The programmer does not have an obligation to produce what the customer wants? You seem to think it is the Manager's responsibility to be the laison between the user and the programmer. Traditionally, the user and programmer colaborate on the project to produce the proper result. Who do you mean by "customer"? if you are working for an outsourcing company your "customer" would be the company I work for. If you are working for at my company (and an employee) then your "customer" is the user? I can tell you that in the first situation the "customer" wants what the user wants. The user wants what he/she has in his/her head not necessarily what was put on paper. Again, the lack of communication and understanding (and accessability) is an issue you seem to avoid. Not only the fact that you have basicly told me that after 23 years I need to find a new profession because you are going to take my job away because you have a lower cost of living and can be paid cheaper for a job that may or may not be done a the same high standards that I would do it.

[Guest.Visitor]

Outsoursing

Glen said: "But once I had gotten married had children, poof, the money was all gone." Ironically, I married a woman who felt the same as I did. Once we were married, our savings actually increased. Glen asked: "Did you forget the cost of raising 1 child?" I know the costs, I have 3 children. But I knew the costs up front that's why I waited until I was 31 before I had my first child. I had that 2 years net salary in the bank by then. As I said in an earlier post, we're a product of all of the decisions we make, the most important decisions being made between the ages of 17 and 22. Glen stated: "I would love to be able to save 50k in 2 years" Even I believe that to be unreasonable! To save 50K may take many years. Glen claimed: "The reality of the economy is that most Americans regardless of their occupation are living paycheck to paycheck. " With that statement I have no argument. I do have argument with those that believe it MUST be so. Again, I must restate that we are all a product of our decisions. Getting married and having a family are huge financial decisions. Unfortunatley, most people make these decisions based upon emotion only. That's where the lifetime of paycheck to paycheck begins. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[J.Pluta]

Outsoursing

Chuck: "an iSeries professional (which, by definition is probably in at least their late 40s)" Only in your world, Chuck. I know plenty of iSeries professionals in their late 30's and early 40's. I'm arguably one of the more accomplished iSeries developers in the industry, and I'm only 42. Chuck: "Don't marry young, don't have kids early, and save and invest wisely starting at age 18 and your life will be a lot easier when you're 50" With this attitude, you don't even see your grandchildren until you're in your 70's or 80's. You'll never have great-grandkids. You'll spend the bulk of your life without a family of your own. Thanks, Chuck, but as far as life advice goes, you can keep yours. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Outsoursing

Joe said: "Thanks, Chuck" You're welcome.

[GlenKerner]

Outsoursing

You are right Chuck, if I hadn't spent all that time in my early 20's living life (while working), or had all those medical bills in my 30's (which nobody can plan for), and was more financially savy when I was younger....no wait, I did save a lot of money when I was younger....It was the medical bills, the times I was out of work due to the company OUTSOURCING that made me have to cash in my mutual funds and 401k...... I guess we all didn't have the good stable environments that you have had. Some of use have been hit hard by the layoffs over the past 20 years. But it is nice to know, now that I'm 42, that I messed up my finances by eating and paying my bills while out of work and instead should have kept that money in the bank and investments instead. What was I thinking? Okay, sarcassism is over.

[J.Pluta]

Outsoursing

Now I remember why I don't actually bother trying to converse with you. Joe