Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

[David Abramowitz]

Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

Scott Walker wrote: I am advising my young family members to not enter the IT field Unless there is some legislative relief, I agree. As previously stated, the accounting profession is about to face the same situation. My personal situation is that I have just recently signed a contract. This may not mean much. I have my eye on selected franchises if the situation worsens. There is a certain amount of empirical predictability, but I would not want to call the shots in this case. There's too many "ifs" in the equation. Dave

Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

So what I gather from the comments made is that we in the technology field must either conform into being a manager of the outsourced jobs or change professions. How many managers do you think will be needed within a company to oversee the outsourcer? And where do you believe the jobless being kicked out can go for work? There are lots of people without jobs right now that would appreciate this knowledge. I am advising my young family members to not enter the IT field. So what options do they have? Should they get a business degree? Maybe a job as a hair stylist because I do not necessairly get my hair styled overseas. What field will be able to handle the IT jobless?

[David Abramowitz]

Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

Check Ackerman wrote: At every company that outsources there will be at least one person needed to coordinate the outsourcing effort Check it out Chuck, , , , ,in almost every instance, the coordinator is the vendor (of outsourcing). I know this first hand, as I was asked to do this. After investigating, I found this to be a common practice. Your comments about expense are also rebutted by studies of outsourcing. The fact is that by and large, outsourcing delivers an inferior product, takes longer to produce, and by TCO measurements is bad for the bottom line. Don't take my word for it, there are plenty of brain trusts who have issued white papers on this sort of thing. Providers and vendors may have the inside track, and expound unfounded platitudes can often get the sale. Particularly if they are big name acconting firms. Which leads me into the next topic - - - Accountants are next to be outsourced. It is already happening. Accountants are far more pervasive than I.T. people, and have more clout in congress. It would be most interesting to find that the role of I.T. protector will fall to the accounting industry! Dave

Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

Susan, What you are seeing is what happens when a job skill becomes a commodity. Market forces at work. Sure there Americans that can do the work. And, believe me, they'd be doing the work except for one thing: They're too expensive. When something becomes a commodity then the winner is the one with the lowest price. Trying to change laws to protect a high price seldom works. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Susan Behrens" wrote in message news:6ae6ba8b.18@WebX.WawyahGHajS... | David said, "Learning new skills will not help. I'm not saying that new skills are a bad thing. A wide set of skills will certainly broaden the possibilities of a job search. OTOH any skill that an individual may have, can be replaced by an outsourcer, or an H1-B holder under today's current condition." | | Bingo! The jobs I see moving overseas are not jobs that require unique skills. And the jobs I see being filled by H-1Bs can be performed by American citizens. David, I agree 100%. It's great to learn new skills, but the problem is that the jobs are leaving the country due to $, not because qualified citizens cannot be found to do the work right here.

Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

David said: "Learning new skills will not help. " I beg to differ. At every company that outsources there will be at least one person needed to coordinate the outsourcing effort. That would be a very valuable skill indeed. If one says, "that's not something I want to do" (which is something commonly heard about learning new skills) then one must swim in the polluted pond and hope to stay alive. There are lots of similar situations where new skills will not only make a person more valuable, often they can be very rewarding also. I say it's better to be in the clean pond, be employed and be happy rather than grumble about the pond around me becoming stagnant. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

David said, "Learning new skills will not help. I'm not saying that new skills are a bad thing. A wide set of skills will certainly broaden the possibilities of a job search. OTOH any skill that an individual may have, can be replaced by an outsourcer, or an H1-B holder under today's current condition." Bingo! The jobs I see moving overseas are not jobs that require unique skills. And the jobs I see being filled by H-1Bs can be performed by American citizens. David, I agree 100%. It's great to learn new skills, but the problem is that the jobs are leaving the country due to $, not because qualified citizens cannot be found to do the work right here.

[David Abramowitz]

Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

I would like to reiterate a point I made in a recent article: The shipment of jobs to offshore locations, and the replacement of U.S. citizens by foreign workers is technology neutral. In fact, I believe that if you look at the bulk of outsourcing efforts, you will find that most of these projects do not center around AS/400 technology. Smaller shops tend not to have the financial resources, or project definitions that outsourcing companies require. Learning new skills will not help. I'm not saying that new skills are a bad thing. A wide set of skills will certainly broaden the possibilities of a job search. OTOH any skill that an individual may have, can be replaced by an outsourcer, or an H1-B holder under today's current condition. Under current policy, we are unnecessarily decimating our own technological resources, and generating a great negative incentive at Colleges and Universities to major in something else. I would strongly suggest that the effort to persuade congress to change the current M.O., is a positive effort, and far more pro-active, and far less fatalistic than merely embracing change. Dave

[David Abramowitz]

Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

I was not attacking you Chuck, I was merely seeking clarification as stated. I also threw in a bit of sarcasm. BTW, I drive a Buick, and the nitrites in most French wines give me a headache. Your most recent post could have started out with "There are people who wait. . . . ." rather than "People wait. . . ." If it was not your intention to lump everyone together, I apologize for not understanding that based upon the wording. Dave

[J.Pluta]

Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

"I like all of the handwaving about outsourcing." Note, Chuck, that I didn't say anything about outsourcing. I am specifically against H and L visas, which in effect "insource" foreign labor. Yes, if programming becomes a commodity then it's going to go to where the lowest bidder is. That's my primary argument against pushbutton programming, and the reason I'm always calling for a rebellion against the dumbing down of the industry. When a job is outsourced, it's because the foreign company getting the business has spent the time and money to put together the necessary infrastructure - anything from a steel mill to an auto assembly plant to a programming sweatshop. But the H and L visas are not about outsourcing, they're about bringing in foreign labor to supplant American workers on American infrastructure. And in the programming industry in particular, much of that infrastructure (configuration of networks and so on) was probably built by the workers being displaced! So there's a real difference here. Visas are one thing, outsourcing another. Joe

Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

Susan said: "I believe sending jobs overseas is bad for the country, period." But that's been happening for over a century. You may have heard me say it before... I didn't see programmers up in arms when the textile industry moved off shore. I didn't see programmers up in arms when television factory line workers' jobs moved off shore. I didn't see programmers up in arms when migrant farm workers started taking over all of the farm labor jobs. It's only now, when a programmer's job is threatened, that we hear that moving jobs off shore is bad for the country. Our country has survived many industries being moved over seas. Our economy has changed much over the last 200 years. It will survive the movement of programmers' jobs also. Susan also said: "For one, I am uncomfortable with the idea of our financial and banking systems being run on computers in countries with unstable governments and easy access to terrorists." Susan, there is NO part of the world that is safe from terrorists. That's just a fact of life. Susan further said: "I am very capable of empathy for someone who has been laid off without having been through that experience personally." Alas, so am I. I was sad when my father was laid off when Packard Bell television closed it's doors and moved to Mexico back in 1973. I didn't wait until this century to empathize with jobs being moved off shore. And, unlike you, I HAVE felt the pain of being laid off. And, within this decade. I KNOW what it's like. But I didn't sulk around and blame everyone else. I picked myself up, sharpened my skills, and got a new (and even better) job. I didn't want, ask or expect pity from others or help from the government to run interference for me. I expect no less from others. While I can empathize with a person who is laid off, I will not pity them. It's their JOB to outpace the tides of change. Here's a poem I have taped to my monitor. It was written by my hero, John Wooden. "Remember this your lifetime through, Tomorrow there will be more to do. And failure waits for all who stay With some success made yesterday. Tomorrow you must try once more, And even harder than before." In other words, don't rest on your laurels. Get busy, learn new things, stay ahead of the curve. And most of all, EMBRACE CHANGE. Take care, chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

Chuck, It's not "sour grapes" for me or anyone else who has never been laid off. I moved away from coding into management, and because of that my job is not directly threatened by H1-Bs and the like - at least not in the short term. I believe sending jobs overseas is bad for the country, period. No sour grapes, in fact, the more jobs get shipped offshore the more my skills will be needed to manage the "offshore resources". I am against this practices because I feel it's hurting the economy and our national security. For one, I am uncomfortable with the idea of our financial and banking systems being run on computers in countries with unstable governments and easy access to terrorists. I am very capable of empathy for someone who has been laid off without having been through that experience personally. If you want to attack the idea, that is your prerogative. But please refrain from making personal judgments about our motives ("sour grapes").

Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

My point was simple: People wait to do something until it hits close to home. They like to talk about a global economy, drive a Mercedes, drink French wine and then when they get laid off because their job was outsourced to someone in southeast Asia they want to gripe that about the global economy taking away their job. Personally, it all just appears to be sour grapes to me. The best way to keep employed is to have valuable skills. If your job can be outsourced then your skill set is a commodity. Make your skill set unique, be flexible in your living location and have a positive attitude and the odds are in your favor to have a life of full employment. As an aside, it appears that you "glossed" over my post as I don't recall saying that I thought all people who oppose foreign outsourcing drive foreign cars. I only said I'd be interested in a poll. YOU made the leap and the assumption. I also made no personal attack upon you or anyone in this group. I recommend that advice to you also. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "David Abramowitz" wrote in message news:6ae6ba8b.11@WebX.WawyahGHajS... | I'm not sure I understand your point Chuck. It appears that you seem to think that all people who oppose foreign outsourcing are driving foreign cars. | | I'd like to think that contributors to such an important issue would avoid syllogism, ad hominym, petitio principii, and tu quoque, at least in the same sentence. | | Dave

[David Abramowitz]

Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

I'm not sure I understand your point Chuck. It appears that you seem to think that all people who oppose foreign outsourcing are driving foreign cars. I'd like to think that contributors to such an important issue would avoid syllogism, ad hominym, petitio principii, and tu quoque, at least in the same sentence. Dave

Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

To all, I like all of the handwaving about outsourcing. It's somewhat amusing. In a similar vein, it'd be interesting to take a poll of all of those that oppose outsourcing to foreign companies and ask them if they own, or have ever owned, a foreign car. Many oppose foreign entities, such as foreign labor, when it hits close to home. Yet, they've lived their lives not backing their talk with their wallet. To me this wreaks of sour grapes. While it's not possible to isolate one's self and purchase only 100% American goods certainly we all have control over the "second most expensive investment, next to a home" that we make. And, don't start with the uninformed line, "but American cars are crap." Personally, I've owned 8 American cars since 1971 and have had nary a lick of trouble. My wife and I, combined, put about 60,000 per year on our cars and we keep them 8-10 years. Also, don't give me the line, "my foreign car was built in the U.S. by U.S. workers." You still DIRECTLY contributed thousands of Dollars to a foreign government and thousands of dollars of profit to a foreign company when you purchased that foreign car. In effect, you outsourced a lot of DOLLARS. I can proudly say that I haven't contributed thousands of dollars directly to the German government only to have them turn around and stab my government in the back when we needed them. Moral to my story? People who live in glass houses.... chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

"KCM2" wrote in message news:6ae6ba8b.8@WebX.WawyahGHajS... | Let's not lose focus/track on this very important subject that we all should stay aware of and hopefully united on. Foreign outsourcing is the key point here, not outsourcing in general. (or ranting about dodging responsibilities.) Displacing American workers is a huge problem for the short and long term US economy by foreign workers. | | We are number one when it comes to technology and we are training droves of foreign workers who first take our jobs through work visas. Second, they will start foreign businesses that will later compete directly with us. We have to pay US workers more to build schools, roads, and maintain the lifestyle many take for granite. | | Take a trip to other nations and you will find how fortunate we are. We should all guard against threats to our way of living and this is definitely one of them.