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A consideration here, is that MS Access is a desktop application. As long as it is used as a desktop application, it is fine. You may even create reports using AS/400 data via ODBC. O.K. - That being said, a problem starts to occur, when the said application becomes more than the original intention. Then you have to analyze, design, and retrofit elements that you were never knew about in the first place, to make someone's personal idea an enterprise wide project. Let us not forget what the "P" in PC stands for! Sometimes you get pointy hair even if you don't want it - All part of management. Dave
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Microsoft Access in AS/400 Shops??? Why/why not???
An iSeries w/o microsoft is like an eagle w/o a bicycle . bobh -
Microsoft Access in AS/400 Shops??? Why/why not???
Bob - What word processor does the Eagle fly with these days? I certainly hope it's not OfficeVision!Comment
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Microsoft Access in AS/400 Shops??? Why/why not???
You're joshing; you mean it's still on the 400? bobhComment
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Microsoft Access in AS/400 Shops??? Why/why not???
I'll toss out a couple of questions for thought provocation, Frank, but the answers can be generalized and don't have to be based entirely on your shop. Suggestions are being made for users to "learn" Access? By whom? Why? Learn what? Does anybody envision the users wanting to perform relational database programming and creating screens, even if the initial direction is unwittingly leading to that requirement? I doubt it. Is there anything in terms of data manipulation that Access would be required for above and beyond Excel data manipulation capabilities? I doubt it. Probably analytic reporting capabilities are desired with a fuzzy idea that having data placed in Access will somehow magically create a multi-dimensional data warehouse. Do they currently have Crystal reporting capabilities (or the equivalent) against the AS/400, and still desire that data be segregated to Access for more manipulation prior to reporting against Access? Or is "Access" shorthand for the kind of reporting they associate with it, such as Crystal Reports, rather than real database programming requirements that are somehow important to them but not important enough to the company to perform on the AS/400? All I can tell you, Frank, is that I sympathize, because we cannot keep up with third party data analysis requirements in this shop. I strongly believe that fundamental office data analysis tools should comprise part of the AS/400 visual interface that supports analysis and manipulation of data directly on the AS/400 in the same way subfiles work. We in the IT industry will not advance the user interface until office productivity tools work directly with enterprise data, rather than this ridiculous situation we're in that you, me, and everybody else has of pumping data to better interfaces than that of the AS/400. This is part of the needed AS/400 visual interface solution, and it has to happen now. RalphComment
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Microsoft Access in AS/400 Shops??? Why/why not???
Love it! That's gone into my quote data bank. Dave...Comment
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Microsoft Access in AS/400 Shops??? Why/why not???
Generally it will give you nothing but headaches. The users will produce something that's a complete mess and you'll end up having to support it. They'll also swamp your machine with ODBC calls and give you performance problems. Alternatively you'll be accused of lack of productivity: "look what we produced in only 2 weeks!" Of course when you look into it you'll find that it took them 25 man weeks, is a complete mess and produces spurious figures. And you'll end up having to support it. (See opening sentence.) Occasionally, however, they will produce something really worthwhile. A few years ago when I was lucky enough to be working with Vlad Bystrov (who still posts occasionally in jdelist) and Gera Rudin they produced a superb Access add-on to analyse and control the clunky security in standard J.D. Edwards World software. This is rare, however, and largely due to the labour market in the CIS. In the West guys of that calibre would never have been in those positions. Dave...Comment
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Microsoft Access in AS/400 Shops??? Why/why not???
O.K. Dave- What word processor does your site fly with?Comment
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Microsoft Access in AS/400 Shops??? Why/why not???
My current site is heavily bogged down with Microsoft software. :-) Dave...Comment
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Microsoft Access in AS/400 Shops??? Why/why not???
No wonder computer professionals aren't popular with users. You can't help them solve their business problems and then dump on them when they struggle to find a tool that will allow them to help themselves. If you outlaw Access that just means the user will create even more horrible stuff in Excel. Since most users aren't capable of creating a good system in Access that just means you need to get some professionals on staff who can help them. Bill HamakerComment
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Microsoft Access in AS/400 Shops??? Why/why not???
This is quite interesting to me because the exact opposite happened . . . I support several departments that use the same piece of third party software on our 400. One of the departments had a legitimate need to track information for which there was no place in the application. Their solution: put it in Access. My solution: put it in files on the 400. Unfortunately, I found out about their plans after the fact. No amount of pleading with the users would change their minds. I wanted them to store the additional information on the 400 so that the information could be reported on along with the other information on the system. Result: The user department hired an Access 'guru' to write their system. The first day on the job the guy tried to delete the master file on the 400 via ODBC 'Delete' on a linked table. (BTW - this is one reason you need exit programs!) Three years later, the Access guru is still developing the system. Not sure if anyone is actually getting any value from it. Obviously, this is more of an indictment of the lack of savvy on the part of the particular user department in making IT decisions but this situation exists in numerous companies the world over. To answer the question posed by the originator of this thread - yes, I believe there are legitimate uses for Access in the enterprise but using it for an enterprise-wide (or maybe even department-wide) database is not one of them. My 2, SteveComment
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Microsoft Access in AS/400 Shops??? Why/why not???
The company I'm currently doing some work for allows the users to enter data into Excel or Access. The users had aleady set up the templates they needed for entering the data they needed. The programmers had long ago set up some programs to load the data from either source into the as/400 database. When the upload/transfer/translate starts to take too long (usually when the record count gets over 10,000 records), the process and data are analyzed to see whether building an as/400 type entry system is feasible. Neither Excel or Access are necessarily good or bad tools to use, each situation is different. Being able to accomodate your users with the tools that work is more important.Comment
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Microsoft Access in AS/400 Shops??? Why/why not???
Every place is different I suppose. Where I work you would never find anyone on the AS400 side pleading to develop new AS400 systems. The AS400 is the store of our "legacy systems" and is pretty much frozen in time. If you want anything other than a patch to a legacy system it needs approval by senior management in the company. Of course a user wouldn't want a new green screen system in any event so nobody is likely to task the AS400 people for anything. You are right that having the users hire an "Access guru" to do something is dangerous. First and foremost you need an experienced competant professional who can design and develop systems in a safe and effective manner - technical excellence in Access is secondary. Of course people like that are hard to find regardless of the platform. It would be nice if there could just be "system developers" and we didn't need to be divided into "PC developers" and "AS400 developers" but that's difficult. Then you might be able to develop some decent systems which combine PC and AS400 tools. After many years where I work things have reached the point where the AS400 people trust me to create Access and Visual Basic systems for users but a joint project where we might actually work together to solve a business problem is unlikely to happen any time soon. What I find is the legacy system folks often try so hard to protect there island of stability that they don't notice that they are increasing the level of chaos in the company as a whole. A good quickie system in Access can do wonders to organize a lot chaotic business processes.Comment
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Microsoft Access in AS/400 Shops??? Why/why not???
Bill wrote: "A good quickie system in Access can do wonders to organize a lot chaotic business processes." You were right about your previous comments on this thread, but a good quickie system in anything creates chaos, not the other way around. The design by batch FTP between silos is pathetic, but now appears to be the rule of the day. I contend that spending on IT has dropped as much out of the business communities' imposition of adult supervision over IT harebrained schemes as anything. First it was rules based AI, then CASE, then OO, then client/server, then neural network AI, and now the browser. One collossal expense after another while COBOL and RPG continue to do all the heavy lifting. One collosal IT exaggeration after another to justify these excursions into la la land, with green screens said to take six months to develop and GUI screens something this side of instant... and on and on. I find it very sad that your "legacy" AS/400 software is frozen, with no one wanting another green screen anymore, while your new solutions are "quickie" chaos organizers. My feelings about those that don't appreciate a good RPG green screen business system is summed up pretty well by a local newspaper headline. Anderson Consulting (they and IBM can take their new names and shove 'em) has just been involved (and is currently being investigated) in a little scheme of unbid contracts and consulting payoffs in a revolving door scheme of government agency directors, etc. While the corruption is what has everybody's attention, Anderson was paid $60 million dollars in unbid contracts to develop software, including a web site to help the unemployed find jobs that ironically itself doesn't work. Just as startling, Ohio is awarding a $28 million contract to Compuware to complete the software. What kind of software is written with $28 million dollars? I and another programmer wrote a jobs site in 3 months, and it wasn't even hard coded as a jobs site. You can add real estate relocation matching, or used cars for transportation matching, or anything else that the unemployed could be looking for on that site, with no change to the code. The administrator can add more criteria for matching at any time with no change to the database file layouts or server code or to the web pages. And it is as feature complete, if not more so, than Monster, Dice, HotJobs, or anybody else. So what are they spending $28 million on? $60 million seems to be the lucky number for Anderson. That's how much they billed for a web order entry system for Gateway stores before it was pulled and trashed by the returning Waitt after the numbers went down the tubes. Couldn't even integrate to JDE on the AS/400. Couldn't even change an order once it was posted. $60 million dollars. While I was writing the RPG backend for Jobs400, a local Seattle consultant came in and integrated a commercial web catalog order entry system with JDE on the AS/400 for a very large Northeast air conditionor/heating manufacturer. The CEO had given IT three months (so it was done while I was there) to put the site up, integrated with their AS/400 JDE ERP. When it was done, on time in three months, it included wireless access to orders and status. What do you think that cost? $60 million dollars? $28 million dollars? Or 3 months of a consultant's time at market rates and a few thousand dollars of commercial AS/400 software? I think the business world has got wise to the hype, and game's over. Ralph P.S. Monster has laid off hundreds, and just merged with HotJobs. Meanwhile the AS/400 served jobs site just keep going and going... like the Energizer bunny, with no dedicated staff. What do hundreds of people do at a jobs site? I am constantly amused at the IT staffs throughout all companies that are featured in articles where they tout OO and the web. I clip the articles, knowing that before long they'll be belly up. There seems to be a direct correlation between web based IT and company losses. The locally based Drug Emporium is the latest. It was web this and web that, and OO, and Java, and on and on. They're bankrupt now. Yep, game's over. The last ones standing will be running RPG and COBOL. And that'a a legacy to be proud of.Comment
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Microsoft Access in AS/400 Shops??? Why/why not???
"My feelings about those that don't appreciate a good RPG green screen business system...." ------------------------------ Just curious, Ralph, given the current state of OfficeVision, what word processing package do you recommend for green screen users or if they need word processing should they have a PC? And for that matter, what spreadsheet package do you recommend? The real questions here are - how far has Microsoft gotten into your shop/shops and how much further do you think Microsoft will get?Comment
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