What the Iseries needs, what do you think?

[Guest.Visitor]

What the Iseries needs, what do you think?

Ted: Excellent question about catapulting the 400. It you are a true developer, you could and should care less about the hardware and concentrate on distributed computing and object oriented languages. I believe (read IMHO) the fanatical, religious fervor of the current 400 adherents will keep RPG alive in a lot of backrooms, but, it won't be the main focus of modern development.

[J.Pluta]

What the Iseries needs, what do you think?

Why do people want to see the AS/400 AKA iSeries continue to exist? So they can keep writing RPG? Absolutely! It is my very strong opinion that RPG and OS/400 is simply the best combination for developing business logic servers available today. Why? Two reasons: 1. The integration of RPG with DB2/400 and the inherent reliability and simplicity of OS/400 combine to make the most cost-effective business logic platform on the planet. 2. At the same time, the almost incalculable resource of development years of knowledge that is contained in the minds of today's RPG programmers is vastly larger, IMHO, than any other single group of professionals. Given those two arguments, I honestly think that the trend toward distributed network-capable applications should actually INCREASE the need for RPG development rather then diminish it. You can develop the complex business logic required for today's business far more quickly and easily in RPG on the AS/400 than you can in any other language and platform. That is obviously my no-so-humble opinion, but I've seen development in many languages, and none compares to the productivity of RPG and the AS/400. And that's why I push using servlets and JSP as a front end to RPG processing back ends. Joe http://www.java400.net http://www.edeployment.com http://www.plutabrothers.com

[R.Daugherty]

What the Iseries needs, what do you think?

Ted Holt wrote: "Why do people want to "catapult this platform?" The industry is headed toward platform independence. If you're a Java programmer, or a WebSphere developer, or a Domino/Notes developer, or whatever, what difference does it make what hardware you're using? Why do people want to see the AS/400 AKA iSeries continue to exist? So they can keep writing RPG?" Ted, that question strikes at the heart concerning the future of the AS/400. An excellent question. Here are some off the cuff thoughts: 1) RPG and COBOL record level I/O remains a competitive advantage over SQL ERP's. SQL has been around a long time. RPG and COBOL were used anyway for some reason. That reason is a competitive advantage. The AS/400 is where that competitive advantage can excel. 2) I was recently involved in benchmarking Java I/O on the AS/400 using the Toolkit record level classes as 20 times slower than RPG. IBM wouldn't mind everyone needing 20 AS/400's running Java to get the performance of one running RPG. Businesses do. 3) The industry is "headed" towards platform independence? And how many years has the industry been saying that? And why hasn't anyone sighted the herd moving yet? And why are we expected to believe this fairy tale of software that runs on any hardware against any database for umpteen years without any such demonstrated capability? One Java ERP, Intentia's MoveX, ported from RPG, exists anywhere (Is Oracle's ERP considered to be Java?). Haven't seen MoveX making any news. All MoveX jobs are for the RPG version. For that matter, I haven't seen any AS/400 Java jobs posted on any job site this year, nationwide. Plenty of Java's in the titles. "Direction", they call it. Yeah, right..... 4) Anyone who thinks the AS/400 is being replaced with "platform independent" software is looney tunes. Oracle on Unix and Windows on NT is eating our lunch, and they don't pussyfoot around about it. They're proud of "Unix" and they're proud of "NT" and they don't talk about platform independence. Well, they do, but only to pacify the innocent as they get slaughtered..... 5) This is war, and if the AS/400 goes away where will that so called "platform independent" software run? On those unabashedly platform dependent platforms, that's where. Because they have platform dependent sofware that people are buying.....and we will lose unless we provide a powerful visual interface for the AS/400 that both leverages our strengths and transcends the Oracle and NT competition. More on that later..... Regards, Ralph

[David Abramowitz]

What the Iseries needs, what do you think?

I recently attended a seminar given by Carson Soule of the "other" publication. He talked in very blunt terms about the failed promises of client server, while maintaining the need for a graphical, communicative interface. His thoughts were that RAD on windows was not rapid at all, and development times in general were very poor, particularly when compared with the ability to generate applications accurately, and quickly using traditional 400 methods. His solution, was similar in thoughts to things Joe Pluta has been saying. Take existing applications, and "webify" them without rewriting. The methods used to webify are long and deep, and as yet no one method has gained a foothold. Carson talked of IBM having over 120 business partners with their own particular solution. Whether it's Joe's encapsulating method, J-Walk's screen painting. Lansa's redeployment, IBM's Host-on-Demand, MQ's messages, or any other method, there is no need to abandon the basis for solid, accurate, and fast development effort at the fundamental level. It appears that the internet may actually prolong traditional programming methods rather than ring their death knell. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

What the Iseries needs, what do you think?

If they ever -- and no one alive today will see it -- put something like FOCUS or Crystal Reports on the 400, IBM would have to convert everything they have to producing 400s. You have to realize that as a percent of the Computer world the 400 is in the single digits, at best. It has two concepts that will eventually be used in all serious computing: DB/2 and the Machine Interface. IMNSHO bobh

[Guest.Visitor]

What the Iseries needs, what do you think?

This issue (IMHO) is not what software you are running, but what hardware that is in place. I dont know the numbers, but I would guess that the majority of the AS/400 installs are smaller shops, packaged software with relatively little inside development. In this environment the "language" means nothing. Its the hardware that runs 24/7 with little system babysitting. IBM can continue to webify the hardware with software improvements and name changes but I hope that the foundation stays. BTW we are one of those shops. 3 AS/400's in 3 states, 2 programmers .. thats it. Steve

[Guest.Visitor]

What the Iseries needs, what do you think?

Ted, Why catapult the AS400??? Me and my staff know OS400, CL, and RPG and IF (A VERY BIG IF) I saw something that was much better not just different, I would go running. JAVA is a new kid on the block, BUT it's got more sizzle than meat. Don't get me wrong, I will be doing both, but it's like saying English is no longer in vogue, I must learn Spanish, so what's the big deal. (Vanna can I buy a comma?) The big deal is, they are both languages, and with some changes RPG (oops APG) could be a contender, as well as the Iseries. Again, don't give up until the Iseries is a dead horse, and by no means, does either qualify.

[Guest.Visitor]

What the Iseries needs, what do you think?

So how about that list??

[Guest.Visitor]

What the Iseries needs, what do you think?

Bob, If they ever ... put something like FOCUS or Crystal Reports on the 400 ... Why isn't using CR on a PC and utilizing ODBC drivers an equivalent implementation? Bill

[Guest.Visitor]

What the Iseries needs, what do you think?

Hi to all, Why is this discussion 'only' about applications ? I thougt that the AS/400 had a little bit more to offer than just the application-environment. DB2/400 has already been mentioned, but perhaps we could also add ptf-distribution, scalability, LPARS, the AS/400-securitysystem, etcetera in this discussion. TTBOMK, programming-languages are almost always the first to be outdated(or said to be out of date). The system-architecture is not. Rob.

[R.Daugherty]

What the Iseries needs, what do you think?

Rob wrote: "Why is this discussion 'only' about applications ? I thougt that the AS/400 had a little bit more to offer than just the application environment." Because people don't buy computers and then look for software. Cross platform such as Java, Domino, Websphere on the AS/400? The OS is more important to people in cross platform, and Unix and NT people aren't going to buy an AS/400 to run cross platform software that runs on their computer. We have to have a unique application base such as we enjoyed for decades to continue to prosper. IBM is essentially saying, "we're going with cross platform solutions, may the best computer win". And everybody on a computer thinks their's is the best. I've rarely seen a willing convert. Ralph ralph@ee.net

[T.Holt]

What the Iseries needs, what do you think?

So how about that list?? OK, I'll start. The iSeries needs a native GUI interface. (I don't consider OpsNav a native GUI interface; does anybody else?) Along with that, it needs an easy way for programmers to develop GUI applications. We've been able to develop interactive applications for years using SDA & RPG. Now we're faced with many choices -- VAJ, VARPG, AVR, PB, VB, etc. etc. etc. -- and don't know which route to take.

[David Abramowitz]

What the Iseries needs, what do you think?

Ted Holt wrote: The iSeries needs a native GUI interface I'm glad you said native. There should have been GUI enhancements to the 5250 data stream years ago, and I don't know what has prevented this occurance! We already have Pop-ups; Pull-downs; Windows; Single & Multi choice fields; Single and Multi Choice subfiles; scroll bars; etc. With Ultimedia APIs, we have the ability to display pictures, with GDDM extentions we have rudimentary graphics and charting capabilities. Screen scrapers and JAVA envelopers have cleared the pathway, all IBM has to do is make this a native reality. IMO, with what we already have, this can not be too difficult for Rochester to accomplish. There must be some political folderol that has prevented this from happening thus far. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

What the Iseries needs, what do you think?

My short term wish list: 1. support "headless awt" as defined in the Sun Merlin doc. This would allow me to use awt in my servlets and jsp's to build html that is then displayed on the client's browser. 2. native gui interface. I agree with Ted that ops nav is not going to be enough. I want a native gui interface for my applications - not just operations. 3. faster sql performance. Servlets doing jdbc (either native or toolbox) to sql cli to QSQSRVR is just wayyyy to slow. Sun Oracle systems with slower cpus blow the as/400 away on performance. I do like the idea of the sql performance analyzer via ops nav, but I havent tried it yet. 4. I want to debug servlets running on the as/400 and have access to all the session state information - including objects we have stored in the session object. Alex Garrison 4.

[R.Daugherty]

What the Iseries needs, what do you think?

I agree with Dave and Ted. I believe the political folderol going on was the $4B purchase of Notes (oh yeah, and the rest of Lotus) and even more in Websphere. IBM says that every AS/400 should be running both Notes Domino and Websphere web servers and they are bound and determined that they will extract $450 per user for Websphere alone, plus thousands of dollars for Websphere Advanced and Domino, just to use the AS/400. This while they help make GNOME a free windows GUI on Linux and can't stop X Windows from being a free windows GUI on AIX. They can keep X Windows from working well enough on the AS/400 though, and they did. They have held the AS/400 hostage to their web page products because they can. Even purchasing the Java 5250 Host On Demand also requires the $7500 Websphere Advanced web server, rather than Websphere Standard, because they can. Instead, they should open the source of Websphere Standard and an AS/400 native windowed GUI interface. Then we can compete instead of having one arm tie d behind our back. They can blame the continuing drop in AS/400 sales on parts shortages this quarter but at some point they'd better understand it's because of a lack of a native GUI interface, an interface that they don't want to provide as competition to their hoped for web server franchise of the future.... Ralph ralph@ee.net Ted Holt wrote: The iSeries needs a native GUI interface David Abramowitz responded: I'm glad you said native. There should have been GUI enhancements to the 5250 data stream years ago, and I don't know what has prevented this occurance! We already have Pop-ups; Pull-downs; Windows; Single & Multi choice fields; Single and Multi Choice subfiles; scroll bars; etc. With Ultimedia APIs, we have the ability to display pictures, with GDDM extentions we have rudimentary graphics and charting capabilities. Screen scrapers and JAVA envelopers have cleared the pathway, all IBM has to do is make this a native reality. IMO, with what we already have, this can not be too difficult for Rochester to accomplish. There must be some political folderol that has prevented this from happening thus far. Dave