Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

[J.Pluta]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Some of the responses were pretty thin, Dan. The comment that all newbies are given only menial jobs - "formatting code" and "unit testing" - is pretty inaccurate, as far as I can tell. The two emails I quoted were definitely NOT asking how to format code. They wer easking how to do pretty high-level tasks. And the whole attitude that it's none of our business who works on the project... that's insane! Of course, it's also insane to ship the code over there in the first place. From what I understand, there are no laws preventing a company from just giving your code to a competitor. And if the project does go belly up, there is no legal recourse, you're just screwed. So, if a company overbooks itself and finds itself suddenly unable to staff projects, then what happens? You get newbies, and it's buyer beware, because you knew that going in. One of the posters even said that you should get special contracts for mission critical things ensuring the level of staff, but that the rates are then higher. Of course, if it's not mission critical stuff, it's probably not the work we're used to and not the jobs American IT staff are getting laid off from. See, there's a disconnect here. CEO's are saying American labor is too expensive, and the offshore firms are saying that they provide cheap labor for simple projects, but nobody's saying that offshore labor does the mission critical stuff more cheaply. Joe

[David Abramowitz]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Joe Pluta wrote: The idea is that outsourcing is cheaper than American labor. I want to see some example of how that is so. Joe brings out an important distinction here: A successful project completion may have cost more than the employers profits will bear! The real outsourcing success story would be one that was ultimately performed for less than the same effort would have cost if not outsourced. According to what I have read, this happens on an infrequent basis. Side note: Some times the good guys win - Dell computer has decided to end the foreign outsourcing of its support lines. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

I have little sympathy for organized labor. What they want as an entitlement I have had to earn. I've been in the business world for 28 years and have never had free benefits. I don't EXPECT it. As to the entry position of $8 an hour: Go into my Vons or Albertsons and look at the name tags on the checkers. They show the year they started. There are NO checkers in my Vons who have started after 1991. They're ALL getting the high end of the pay scale. Why do you think that is? Because it's a gravy job with high pay. Why do you think they are fighting so hard? Because they realize that they're getting much more than they're worth. And, therein lies the problem we've been talking about. Entitlements. Once a worker, say a programmer, gets to a certain salary, it's hard for them to go back. They feel humiliated and embarrassed. I have taken pay cuts twice in my career to take a position that I thought would be better for me in the long run. It's tough, but worth it. I just can't imagine ANY union member ever doing such a thing. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Bill" wrote in message news:440E92E9967F27EEE71F5A4766DAC8AA@in.WebX.Wawy ahGHajS... > Chuck Ackerman wrote: > > Here in Southern California we have grocery workers on strike. > > Imagine, if you will, that these are people who earn in the > > neighborhood of $20 per hour and get ALL medical benefits, including > > dependent coverage, FOR FREE. What do they do? They scan barcodes > > all day long. (Yes, I know, they have to memorize the SKU number for > > bananas so one might argue that there is some skill in the job.) Yet > > they go on strike. Why? Because organized labor has convinced them > > that when the grocery store says that medical costs are too high and > > the employee should kick in $20/month for their fair share they are > > being cheated. (It really irks me since I pay about $800/ month for > > the same insurance but never once thought of complaining. I know > > that if I don't like it I can move on.) > > > > So, it's not just corporate America, it's often organized labor that > > has convinced minimum wage earners that they are entitled to two SUVs > > and 3 ATVs. > > Geez Chuck, you sure have a simplistic outlook on other workers. $20 an > hour is the top of the ladder, new hires are about $8. The workers gave up > some wage concessions in order to have all their med paid, so why not offer > your employer a reduced wage demand if they'll agree to pay all of your > medical costs? Oh and that $20 a month is for a single employee and the > absolute bottom option in coverage with it's requisite high deductibles and > larger co-pays and limited Physician participation - is that what you have > Chuck? > > Bill > >

[Guest.Visitor]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Recently there were headlines about how the productivity of the American worker is growing at the fastest rate in recent history. Usually I think of that as comprised of workers working extra hard so they don't lose their jobs, but maybe there's more to it than that. If I understand correctly, productivity is defined as the total dollars output divided by the total number of workers. Does anyone know if offshore outsource workers are counted in that total? I doubt they are. If they aren't, that means that part of our productivity growth can be attributed to shipping jobs overseas, right? Nice. I wonder how big of a factor it is. Brian

[Sunnyin]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Your research seems to be objective. Here is what you said: ‘Tata Infotech made over $2 billion last year in services.’ As far as I am aware, none of the Indian companies have a turnover of $2bn from IT. As a link you have attached the financial reports of Tata Infotech. But the link shows the revenues to be Rs. 483 Crore which is $100 million. Second quote: ‘And if you watched CNBC on November 15, you'd have seen Ratan N. Tata, the chairman of the Tata Group, as he was crowned the Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year 2003.’ Is there something wrong with this? Do you think Ratan Tata is not eligible receive this award? Tata is $9bn group and IT forms only one of the 80 companies it has. For a H1 visa to be approved, the company has to prove that a person with similar skill set is not available in the US. That means something is wrong with this process. Some government employee ‘on site’ is not doing his job properly. Your experience of 90s (almost a decade ago) should have been substituted by some latest experience. You seem to generalise the whole companies based on two messages. If I quote two such messages from some forum about some European or an American will you generalise the workforce in that company? Overall it’s a good article about the cheap American politics and heavy lobbying by consulting firms. Welcome to Globalisation....

[David Abramowitz]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Sunnyin asked: Do you think Ratan Tata is not eligible receive this award? Ernst and Young sets the criteria, and Ernst and Young awards the award. If the individual did not meet Ernst and Young's criteria, then there would be reason to question elligibility. Not for other reasons. OTOH several states attorney generals sued Ernst and Young about a year ago for unfair business practices. The end result was that Ernst and Young was forced to divest itself of its subsidiary consulting firms. Once divested these firms could no longer do business with Ernst and Young's audit clients. This was similar (but not quite the same) as what Arthur Anderson, and Price Waterhouse were doing. From what I understand Ernst and Young's (unfair) business practices were particularly egregious, and not restricted to an isolated instance. Dave

[Sunnyin]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

http://www.ey.com/global/content.nsf...e_-_11-22-03DC http://www.ey.com/GLOBAL/content.nsf...ients_Prairies

[J.Pluta]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Thanks for your reply, Sunnyin! Yes, I absolutely got the numbers wrong for Tata. I don't normally calculate in Crores, and I got the conversion wrong. Thank you for pointing it out, it makes me a little happier. But the Wipro numbers, which were in US dollars, are correct. As to the relationship between Ernst and Young and Tata, it's purely the fact that every consulting company has very strong ties with the offshore development companies, and their judgment is suspect. Again, I am waiting for the news of one successfully outsourced project in our industry, much less the repeat business claimed by many of these firms, and their advocates in the consulting industry. Regarding my experience, if you plan to challenge my assumptions, I suggest you have facts. Since I have yet to hear of any success stories, I'll go with my experience to date. The generalization issue has been raised, but this was not meant to be an all-encompassing thesis. In the interest of space I only picked two messages. If you go through the archives, you'll find many more. Feel free to do so. You can also find emails from the mailing list from Americans and/or Europeans, but you will find that newbie questions from Americans are not from consulting firms that advertise their expertise. This is my problem with the whole thing. We are being told by corporations that Americans are being displaced by cheaper labor, with the implication that this labor is as good as the American workforce. The questions we see on mailing lists do not reinforce this notion. And in fact, the recent discussions I have had with developers who have worked for the leading outsourcing firms leads me to this picture of a typical offshore development project: 1. Offshore company bids for project, touting experience in this area. 2. American company accepts bid, thinking they are getting experienced programmers. 3. Offshore company is actually made up of a relatively small percentage of experts, and LOTS of freshers. The typical project may have one or two senior people, a few people with medium experience, and a LOT of freshers. 4. American company thinks it is getting expert programming, when in truth the consulting company's freshers are posting questions on the Internet for basic functions of the project. The idea seems to be that the offshore companies believe that, under proper guideance, freshers can deliver code as good as experts and that the Internet is a good place to learn about client projects. We went through that in America about two decades ago. That was when we learned that the real cost of software development is not initial development, but maintenance. We learned that code written by inexperienced newbies is more brittle and more fragile than code written by experts, and so we came up with strict project development life cycles designed to allow delegation of menial work to new talent. The emails we see on the list indicate this is not the case with outsourced work. As to the H-1B problem, I have always said it is not the visa holder, it is the company that gets it that is at fault. We have all seen plenty of H-1B holders who do not have skills that cannot be found among the American workforce. And in fact, I challenge you to identify any such skill. Thus, the problem is that companies are lying, and the government is letting them get away with it. And the L-1 visas are even worse. Joe

[J.Pluta]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Sunnyin, are you making a point here? Perhaps that Ernst and Young picks winners from other areas? I'm sure you realize that the awards you quoted were regional awards, so by definition they had to be from that region. I, however, incorrectly identified Mr. Tata as the recipient of the "World Entrepeneur of the Year", but the World award for 2003 was actually given to Narayan Murthy of Infosys. Mr. Tata, who received this year's regional award for India, will vie for the World award next year. I regret the error. Joe

[J.Pluta]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

I know you often type completely off-the-wall stuff to get a rise out of people, but this one is particularly egregious, Chuck: "They've grown accustomed to having the Motorhome, the ATVs and the 2 SUVs in the three car garage and just can't believe that someone would work for less and do without those luxuries." Which AS/400 programmers do you know with a motorhome and two SUVs in the three car garage? This is the sort of hyperbole that usually detracts from whatever point you're trying to make. I'm talking about two people, both working and trying to stay in a modest suburban house and put away some money for the kids' college fund. I'm talking about working single moms trying to make sure their kids can afford summer sports leagues. Your vision of the affluent AS/400 programmer is based on something you might have seen in the 90's, but I guarantee it's not the standard of living we're striving for today. Today we're just trying to make sure our kids are okay. Don't insult good, hard-working Americans with your rather skewed notion of our goals. We don't want to be rich. We just want to provide for our families. Joe

[Sunnyin]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Thanks for your message. I have had similar experience with American/European programmers as you. I have worked as a permanent employee/contractor for Big 5 and many more MNCs. The practices are quite similar. They hire fresh graduates who are available more cheaply. A person with almost no experience is sent onsite as a 'Consultant' and billed $1500 per day. I have tuned many programs written by these newbies because they just don't run or crash. As a contractor I had to train such guys so they can replace me. Clients think they are getting value for money. Clients beleive what you said in point 4. The tone of the article appeared to be more inclined in blaming the companies doing offshore business and less inclined towards blaming the US government and MNCs who want to make more money. I might be wrong. I reiterate the fact the article provides a good insight into cheap American politics and lobbying by consulting firms. About the success stories, I have seen no indications to the fact that, because outsourced projects are failures there has been lesser and lesser work is getting outsourced. Whilst they may not be as successful as they were predicted (as with any project of any nature), the statistical data about outsourcing says they are not failures. Your comments on E&Y award are interesting. I assume you beleive that the previous awards too are given to those who have strong relationship with E&Y. http://www.ey.com/global/content.nsf...-_Past_Winners I have nothing more to add. Best of luck.

[David Abramowitz]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Chuck Ackerman wrote: almost all of the best qualified candidates have names I can't pronounce I can't imagine how a name might influence an employment decision! David Abramowitz (now submitting resumes under the pseudonym "Neil Armstrong")

[J.Pluta]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Thanks for your thoughtful commentary, Sunnyin. I agree that the concept of putting inexperienced people on projects is not solely the province of offshore developers. In fact, we suffered from that to a great degree in America in the 90's. There were many contracting firms whose sole purpose was to get as many bodies working as possible, with little regard to the work product. Some of us called these firms "puppy mills", and when the dot-com bubble burst, many of those companies quickly went out of business. But they had already damaged the industry, and so I attribute at least partial blame to those companies. Had we as an industry been providing top-notch work for the dollar, many of our clients would have never even begun looking offshore. But now it seems that some of the most unproductive of those practices may have been revived by the outsourcers, and it is my fear that we're going to see much of the same results: overruns, missed tagret dates and companies going to cheaper, less powerful solutions simply because they've been burned too many times. This sort of practice is what may ultimately lead to the demise of the custom software industry. As to outsourcing and failures, the recent Dell announcement is simply the most visible failure. I am convinced others will follow. I have received emails outlining various outsourcing failures, most due to problems with language and time zones, while I have received absolutely zero accounts of companies that have had a successful outsourcing project, much less would be willing to begin another. And if you do not have repeat business, eventually the well runs dry. Finally, the relationship between Ernst and Young and the companies it names, well, I'll leave that to you. Take the time to see who is auditing whom, and who is on the various boards of directors, and you'll see very interesting interlocking relationships. I'm just saying that these awards are simply one more sign of how the consulting firms primary interests are their own interests, and that management needs to use this information when they determine whether or not the guidance such firms offer is biased or not. Joe

[dacust]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Joe, sometimes I think you don't listen to others. That was my point. The best example is your reply to me. You respond "I don't necessarily think the comments were objective". If you will read my post carefully and really try to listen to what I said, I said I thought YOU were being objective. I have never, in any of my posts expressed my own viewpoint about their comments. I was ONLY commenting about the way you were re-acting to them. The only reason I mentioned anything at all is because I think you have some very good points to make, but occasionally your arguing style means that most people that don't agree with you will not be won over by you. They will recognize that you haven't listened to them. At times you only listen to the things you want to hear, as evidenced by your response to me. Please note: If you sounded like an idiot, I wouldn't have bothered saying anything at all. If I dissagreed with what you said I would probably not have bothered as well. It's only because I agree with you that I hoped I could point out a minor flaw or two in your response to people. Sorry, this whole thing was meant to be a quick comment and has turned into several posts, I think I'll drop it. It has, however, caused me to decide to finish an article I started a while back on "Discussion Styles". If you'd like, I'll let you know if/when/where it gets published.

[Guest.Visitor]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Did any of you hear him say "Let the Software go to India" on the MSNBC debate? I screamed when I heard him say that. Carol Mosley Braun responded that she did not want the "software to go to India". I'm with Dennis Kucinich when he says he will cancel NAFTA and the WTO and renegotiate "FAIR" trade instead of "FREE" trade. I hope that everyone is following what is happening in our nation and the world. It is pretty scary. Margie Jessup