It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

[Thomas Birchmire]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

Hello All, I considered a web interface for the I-Series and found out it supports several flavors of the same thing. I transferred several versions of some html I was doing at the time. try: http://timeshare400.gotdns.com:88/tbi5a/PRETTYIDX.mbr It doesn't take websphere to write web stuff for the Iseries/AS400/etc and you don't have to do it with Java either. Vanilla HTML/CSS wotks as advertised. Regards, questions tom Birchmire tbirchmire@usa.net

[T.Grove]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

john.decoville wrote: RPG programmers have been lazy and are, for the most part, waiting out the clock. Their conservatism is one of the BIG reasons we are in the End-Game for the AS/400. I can be programming in the Green-Screen world and even pretend I am still on one of those demo System 38's I first signed onto in 1979. Guess what John: I'm anything but lazy. I am very hard-working, and WANT to learn all the new technology and Web based GUI stuff, but even if I do, I'll not be allowed to use it. Can I use new technology at my place of work? NO! we have a package that we have purchased Can I modify the package to use Web? NO! it's our vendors code, and I can't re-write it all for them. Sure we make mods, but only to the green-screen fucntionality. I would not be allowed to change the app to be web based. Am I allowed to learn, let alone USE new Web/GUI technology? NO! Management makes the decision on whether we use new technologies, not me as the porogrammer. Also, I am not encouraged to learn new technologies, and any learning I do is entirely on my own, and at my own expense. So, I AM learning .NET on my own, not Websphere (which I really have NO resources to learn it properly). I love the AS400, but it's not the PROGRAMMERS who are killing it, it's management where we work and Packages. We would use the new stuff if we were allowed, encouraged, and trained to.

[Guest.Visitor]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

That BluRay technology runs Java? How about the vending machine in your office or your microwave in the kitchen, garage opener or even the GPS navigation system in your car? Java is an ALL around programming language that supports all kinds of applications. Whether you're in robotics, mobile devices, graphic design, scientific research or business application. Java RULES... I'm happy to say that I've made the right decision to leave RPG for Java/J2EE after nurturing me for 12 yrs, particularly RPGLE for giving me a smooth transition to OOP. Java, 12yrs and counting... now with JavaFX and jRuby... just keeps getting better and better...

[Guest.Visitor]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

I love the AS400, but it's not the PROGRAMMERS who are killing it, it's management where we work and Packages. I know exactly what you're saying as I've been in your shoes for so long that I even envisioned myself flipping burgers for a job but its only half of the problem and the other half is your desire to code. I'm anything but lazy. I am very hard-working, and WANT to learn all the new technology and Web based GUI stuff, but even if I do, I'll not be allowed to use it. OK but don't let the management kill your desire to write technical stuff. Its just plain wrong. Can I use new technology at my place of work? NO! we have a package that we have purchased. Can I modify the package to use Web? NO! it's our vendors code, and I can't re-write it all for them. Sure we make mods, but only to the green-screen fucntionality. I would not be allowed to change the app to be web based Then don't try to learn the package. If its J2EE/JEE apps, learn the design patterns and the frameworks that supports the apps. Am I allowed to learn, let alone USE new Web/GUI technology? NO! Management makes the decision on whether we use new technologies, not me as the porogrammer. Also, I am not encouraged to learn new technologies, and any learning I do is entirely on my own, and at my own expense. So, I AM learning .NET on my own, not Websphere (which I really have NO resources to learn it properly). Again, its a tough decision but all yours. I can't speak for .NET nor Websphere as it requires you to have/buy a licence to learn. I started out learning Java then Apache Web Server (for web serving) then J2EE concepts/frameworks (for back-end business logic/processing). Best of all, these technologies are free, ready to use and machine independent (even runs on your PC). My cost for learning, about $500+ for all the technical books I bought in addition to 6-8 months of reading/coding/testing patiently. Next thing I know I'm writing web applications. Its not that hard to learn if you know where to look. Community is a great resource. Google is your friend.

[T.Grove]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

Gio, I am able to learn .Net for free, if I want, and the community there is incredible. I did end up purchasing a copy of VS2005 Professional. I am loving learning, and technology. As for management killing my desire to write technical stuff, I use embedded SQL, Free format, and modular design. I write pretty technical stuff within the limits of what my company will allow. This comment really doesn't make sense in the context: Then don't try to learn the package. If its J2EE/JEE apps, learn the design patterns and the frameworks that supports the apps. I know design patterns, and the framework that support the package (which is modular coding, RPG, and 5250 for this package). The point that I was making there, was that my employer spent lots of money for this package. Patches and upgrades of this package come from the vendor. Sure, we modify the code, but not the fundamental framework in which it operates. I cannot web-face their entire application, as it is theirs. Also, I cannot create individual web-based applications along side of theirs, beacuse I won't be allowed to force the user to jump from green screen to web and back for the "same" application. These restrictions make sense from a business standpoint. I'm betting my future as a coder on ASP.Net, as it seems like the most needed, and responsive platform out there. Oh, and one of my biggets complaints with IBM, and the iSeries talking heads always slam me for it is: Websphere cannot be purchased by an individual, only as part of an AS400 purchase. Also, there is no GOOD way to learn it as an individual. Another reason to go to .NET coding. I guess there's one true thing about the statement that it's the programmers fault: we're moving on to other platforms, since management and IBM haven't helped us grow on this one.......

[R.Daugherty]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

In the earlier discussion, I thought someone pointed out that there are iseries timeshare sites that will ship you Websphere Development Client to use. I looked at one site last night that ships it to you free for an annual account. Cost was less than a dial up ISP web account for a personal iseries development account. Multiple sites listed all technologies (except I didn't see PHP yet) available to use, including Java. I don't understand the basis for complaint. It's what I'm in the process of doing. One poster using one of those sites posted a URL to demo an RPG-CGI program he's testing. I will be clicking on that tonight when I have time to look at it, and doing the same. rd

[David Abramowitz]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

TAGrove stated: I love the AS400, but it's not the PROGRAMMERS who are killing it, it's management here here!! As an independent working in a variety of shops, I see this all the time. Interestingly enough, it's the very same management that uses spreadsheets for everything under the planet, whether it's appropriate or not! Dave

[ravn]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

The X11 clients and libraries is present in PASE. Set the DISPLAY variable and run "xterm". Voila.

[T.Grove]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

Ralph, You stated: In the earlier discussion, I thought someone pointed out that there are iseries timeshare sites that will ship you Websphere Development Client to use. I looked at one site last night that ships it to you free for an annual account. More power to the timeshare sites. I'm talking about IBM not making it available to developers. If those sites, out of the kindness of their heart, want to make websphere available, that's their business. IBM, not a third party, needs to really push the envelope here. The way to get more developers using your platform and tools is: A: Have a platform that more than a minority know of B: Make your tools easily available and ease to learn Intel/Microsoft has definitely got IBM beat in both of these areas.

[R.Daugherty]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

I don't know about any kindness of the heart, WDSc is IBM's preferred development client for the iseries, so WDSc will be available with SEU. The timeshare accounts (not that there's an abundance of them) are available for personal development, and WDSc is included along with SEU on at least a couple that I saw. It just costs them to ship a CD or DVD or something to you, so there was a $25 shipping/handling charge waived by one site for the $120 per year development account. That's RPG, C++, Java, CGI, and soon PHP to develop anything you want anytime you want. For $10 a month. Still not sure what there is to complain about. As for the PC thing, WDSc is a development client for the iseries. It would not do much without interfacing to an iseries, other than typing in some code and seeing a syntax check. If one is serious about talking about iseries development, then one would be developing on an iseries. The money spent for a Microsoft product to develop local programs would pay for a number of $10 a month development on an iseries. Which of course, is what WDSc is for. rd

[T.Grove]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

Ralph, I understand what you are saying, I really do. But, you don't seem to understand what I'm saying. So, I'll give you a real world example. AS400 concultant has many clients. Consultant can access client machines via VPN. Consultant wants to develop applications for all of his clients using Websphere development studio (doesn't matter what type of app, but argument sake, make it Web). Consultant has 3 options which will allow him to get WDSC, but NONE will allow him to legally develop for all of his clients. 1. Get WDSC from one of his clients. Legal only for development on that particular cleint machine, as the WDSC is licensed to the client. 2. Get WDSC from a timeshare site. Legal only for development on the timeshare, as WDSC is licensed to the timeshare. 3. Get WDSC with the purchase of consultant's very own AS400. Legal only for development on his OWN machine. In no way does IBM offer WDSC to be purchased directly by a developer/consultant. The consultant CAN get a copy, but it just isn't legal for him to use it for all of his clients. That is my point. Microsoft will sell you their development tool. IBM will not.

[R.Daugherty]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

I'm not into administration, licensing, etc., but I think this was discussed awhile back and I wasn't paying much attention. What I vaguely recall is that when I was looking at some iseries stuff online that WDS was listed online and available for sale from IBM dealers, and the reason was for consultants, IIRC. This appears to be a limited scenario to me. If the iseries client has a development license, they have WDS. If they don't, this amounts to a consultant or consulting company sort of rolling a development license and WDS in particular along with them to clients. I've never heard of an iseries client hiring development consultants but not having any development software on their iseries. Maybe I'm missing something. Is this an issue for iseries consultants? rd

[Guest.Visitor]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

Hi TAGrove, Hi Ralph, I had WDT way back on Virtual400 and now have WDSc on Rickas, so I have had legal personal use on for what amounts to my own AS/400 since Common was in New Orleans before the big Flood. circa 2000 In my opinion, its there if you want it. Is it as plentiful as PC's? No, but then neither are we. If you want it you will find it and get it, and pay for it. But what do you want it for? If your employer won't use it, and if you learn it on your own, but then you won't move or look for a place that will let you use it, then what's the point. Now, for the consultants use at multiple clients, I haven't looked this up, but I remember back in circa 2000 there was a consultant product. Hey, we all got to pay to play, legally. If you go to a client site and they have compilers, they have the tools, simple to me. I think, the gripe most have is, it is a royal pain in the but to be a developer on a system that can really kick some butt if you have access to the lastest butt kicking tools for free, and free reign to use them, which most of us have neither. The answer, start your own company like Joe Pluta, then you can use it however you want whenever you want. The problem is bigger than IBM being sometimes ilogical, its about developers having to make life changing decisions just to use a cool tool, so you either make all the right decisions that will allow that to happen, or you gripe your butt off, instead of going out there and kicking some serious butt. Craig

[R.Daugherty]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

Thanks for that info, Craig. I can use some of it. Have a good holiday. rd

[J.Pluta]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

"1. Get WDSC from one of his clients. Legal only for development on that particular cleint machine, as the WDSC is licensed to the client." Um. This is an interesting interpretation. Who at IBM told you this? I'm sure it wasn't... well, it wasn't anybody. Because here's the thing: as long as a System i has 5722WDS, then they have unlimited licenses to WDSC. So, basically, any (legal) copy of WDSC can be used to talk to any System i. It's just common sense. Let's say I had three machines in my shop. Do you think IBM would require me to have THREE copies of WDSC on every workstation just so I could edit code on each System i? Hardly. As long as I've got 5722WDS on each machine (which I need to talk to the machine with WDSC at all), then IBM isn't terribly picky about which legal copy of WDSC I use to talk to the machine. Until you hear from IBM otherwise, you can quote me as saying you can use any legal copy of WDSC to work with any legal copy of 5722WDS. Joe