It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

[T.Grove]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

Ok. I challenge anyone to find at IBM where a copy of WDSC can be purchased as a stand-alone product.

[T.Grove]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

Craig stated: The problem is bigger than IBM being sometimes ilogical, its about developers having to make life changing decisions just to use a cool tool, so you either make all the right decisions that will allow that to happen, or you gripe your butt off, instead of going out there and kicking some serious butt. So, I should quit my job and either start my own company (and buy my own AS400), or move to another Job (and for me that means moving to another state where there are actually As400 jobs to be had) just to use a cool tool that my current employer doesn't use? I am learning the butt-kicking tool of today and tomorrow: Microsoft Visual Studio. (Not IBM Websphere) Again, look at the job boards. Look at the ratio of .NET jobs versus AS400 jobs. Who's kicking who's butt, and which tool kicks which tools butt.....

[J.Pluta]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

I challenge you to find where you can buy a standalone chimney. You only need WDSC if you have a System i. That's the point. If you don't need the System i extensions, then buy one of the Rational products that don't include them, such as Rational Application Developer. Joe

[J.Pluta]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

"So, I should quit my job and either start my own company (and buy my own AS400), or move to another Job (and for me that means moving to another state where there are actually As400 jobs to be had) just to use a cool tool that my current employer doesn't use?" Short answer: yes. If you are unsatisfied with your employer (especially if they are forcing you to use outdated tools when the new tools are free), then yes, quit griping and get a new job. This isn't about IBM or their tools, this is about your job. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

It ain't MS that's kicking butt over here, but then, again, you ain't over here...you are over there...so kick butt over there with MS... So, then, why are you investing your time over here griping? Are you spending an equal amount of time on MS discussion boards? If that is where your heart is, then by all means, go there, and prosper...I know you can, because others do. There are people prospering in RPGIV, in ILE, in WDSc, in OS/400, in AS/400, and in MS. Find your place, that you want to be and go for it. But, to let you gripe and not point out to you that it is possible to prosper here....But, it will cost you. Dearly, cause this Cause ain't cheap to follow. But, then, neither am I. I am not cheap, I don't work for cheap, I don't play cheap, I don't educate myself cheap, and I don't expect anyone to give me anything. I also, don't give my kids anything, unless they work for it, it teaches them the value of good stuff. I think you see the value in your experience on the 400, want to continue down that road, but are not willing to pay the price...price being life changing decisions, but, guess what, you either make those decisions on your own, or you default to someone else making those life altering decisions for you.... But, then I could be reading you wrong. If I am then I will stand corrected. Go for it, if you want to stay with the 400, go for it, you can do it, think and act positive, but, be ready to move if that is what it takes. There are no guarantees. Craig

[Guest.Visitor]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

TAGrove, Just so you know, that I ain't blowing smoke. I started here in Nov. It was a growth position, and MS is not worshipped or used anywhere here that the 400 can be used wisely. There have been 2 more growth positions hired since then, and there is an open position now. So if you lived here and were HIRABLE, you wouldn't have to move. But I did, a 10 hour drive from my homeland, but then again I have made similar moves twice before in other lives. Craig

[Guest.Visitor]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

Hi Joe, I agree with you. If you aren't happy where you are then go to where you will be happy. Oops, my legacy skills are showing. I used a goto :}. I should have said CallP prcYourHappyPlace. I look at what I do as career and not just a job. If I want a job, I can go drive a semi and make pretty good money. But, I love what I do and am very vigilant about learning new techniques and technologies. My career is not the AS400, though. It is all of I.T. Pick and choose. What do you want to do? I'm now working an AS400 contract as well as an open source web development contract. I decided that web development interested me and took some classes at a local community college. They're not teaching it on the AS400. So, I learned HTML (platform doesn't matter), PHP, and MySQL. I have a class coming up in .NET web development. The rest such as Linux and a bit of Java I'm picking up on my own. So, here's the deal. You're either aggressively pursuing knowledge in your career or you're not. If you're not, then, your options may be limited down the road. I will be learning WDSc soon on one of the timeshare sites. I will also be using it to learn how to turn an AS400 into a web server. Everyone has a different idea of what makes them happy. I can't tell anyone that learning a new technology will make them happy. If not, then maybe they'd find happiness driving a semi. That's OK. The world needs truck drivers, too. They perform a valuable service. The technology I'm learning isn't even new anymore. But, I learn it because I love it! I also love my second career as an income tax specialist. And, I love learning new things there, too. Where do I find the time? Oh ya, I forgot to sleep last night. ;}. I now need to go to a place that makes me happy. Developing on a client's AS400. Tom

[T.Grove]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

Short answer: yes. If you are unsatisfied with your employer (especially if they are forcing you to use outdated tools when the new tools are free), then yes, quit griping and get a new job. This isn't about IBM or their tools, this is about your job. I'm happy with my job. I'm happy with where I live. I'm happy with my employer. I'm happy with working on the AS400. I'm happy learning .Net, which I have used here to develop some small applications here. What I'm not happy with is everyone saying "Go websphere and You're the problem if you don't learn it". As I stated in my first post to this thread, going to Websphere is just not an option for shops that have a package that they have spent large amounts of money for. I'd be willing to bet that there are more shops with packages than home-grown systems. As for not being marketable: Look again at the job boards. There are 5 times as many jobs for .NET as for IBM AS400. This is very plain to see. Personally: I have 18 years of experience on the AS400, and command a very good salary. I was a contractor for a number of years and made very respectable hourly rates. I got out of contracting because the market dried up and I wanted to have income, so I took a permanent job. I know many skills on the AS400 that make me more marketable than most, just not Websphere. (again, because of packages and strategc choices of the companies that I work for) Finally: Telling me to quit my job because the place that I work has a package that fulfills the needs of the company, but does not use the coolest tool is just plain stupid. It's almost as stupid as telling my boss that we need to dump that system in favor of one that has the cool tool for development.

[David Abramowitz]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

TAGrove wrote: There are 5 times as many jobs for .NET as for IBM AS400. This is very plain to see. This may be true. It also may be true that there are 10 times as many .NET professionals as there are AS400 professionals. Dave

[T.Grove]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

I have a friend that is a recruiter. I just called him up. Before I could ask how the market is doing, his exact words were: "You need to get off that box, man. It's dead. I'm managing to keep a couple of people going, but I don't know how." I WAS going to ask him how the conditions for the AS400 job market were, but as you can see he beat me to it. Seems like IBM's marketing is really working. "Let's get the independant system vendors to sell our machine." "Let's advertise and say nothing about the machine that we're advertising for." Nothing wrong with IBM.....

[Guest.Visitor]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

I'm glad you're happy. 'Tis true that there are far more .NET jobs than AS400 jobs. But, that doesn't tell the whole story. How many .NET developers are chasing those jobs? I recently bid on a project where knowledge of QBasic is important. That is the only job I've seen recently that was looking for that skill set. That doesn't mean anybody should go right out and learn QBasic, but, a skill I learned and used in the 80's may be useful in the 00's. The moral? It will do you no harm to learn a technology and it may be useful when you least expect it. Learn what is interesting to you. Knowledge builds on itself and makes you better in the long run. If Websphere is not interesting and .NET is, fine. The reason is not important. I will be learning .NET soon myself. It may be monetary interest or something else entirely. Anybody who says you must learn a certain technology is talking from a narrow focus. Good luck in your endeavors. BTW, why do you write that you shouldn't reply? Tom

[J.Pluta]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

Ah, here's the problem: you're confusing WebSphere Application Server (WAS) with WebSphere Development Studio Client for iSeries (WDSC). WAS is a web application server - more specifically, a J2EE compliant Java server. WDSC is not WAS. WebSphere Development Studio is simply the unfortunate name IBM gave to its development tools. Technically, even RPG is a WebSphere language, because the RPG compiler is part of licensed product 5722WDS, WebSphere Development Studio for iSeries. Note that there is no word "Client" in that name; it's WDS, not WDSC. WDS is the part that you install on your iSeries. While there ARE people (primarily at IBM) who insist that all RPG development should be switched to Java running under WAS, the overwhelming majority of those of us in the trenches agree with you that WAS is not the best solution for everyone, especially if you have no need for a browser interface! WDSC is different. Even if you do nothing but green screen development, WDSC will make yuo more productive. Only the most technology-resistant people in the RPG community have used WDSC and decided not to use it. WDSC is simply a super-powerful integrated developement environment for RPG (and COBOL and C and Java and HTML and JSP and...). It's free except for whatever it costs you to get a post-2004 PC on your desk, and once you learn it you'll almost never use SEU again. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

It also may be true that there are 10 times as many .NET professionals as there are AS400 professionals People are lured by the high demand for a job and switch careers, but they fail to see the surplus supply! Especially that of guys that have 5 years of experience and are twenty years younger! I am barely surviving as they kick my butt. Yet they dont survive on AS/400 when I kick their butt The management values me, an AS400 expert with pathetic .NET skills, over the youngster who is a .NET guru with absolutely no AS/400 skills.

[Guest.Visitor]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

You need to get off that box, man. It's dead I have been hearing this for the past one decade. Everytime a recruiter says that, I dump him/her! Get off this recruiter, his marketing skills are more pathetic than that of IBM.

[David Abramowitz]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

This is all accurate in my experience, but there is more to it. It also helps to have good business acumen. If one can converse in business and accounting terms with finance, if one can mix marketing menage with sales, and if you can speak warehouse without weeping, you may go far. Dave