It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

[TheQuigs]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

https://www-112.ibm.com/software/how...ry=USA&PT=html I found this by simply pointing my browser to http://www.iseries.ibm.com (I think http://www.ibm.com/systems/i works too. I just remember the old URL better.) Then I clicked software, went to the System i software from A to Z tab, clicked 'W' and scrolled a little to find it. After selecting it, (takes you to http://www.ibm.com/software/awdtools/wdt400/) there's a link on the right-hand side "View pricing and buy". You can't find where to buy it because you don't want to. Go learn .NET if that's what trips your trigger.

[Guest.Visitor]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

'What I'm not happy with is everyone saying "Go websphere and You're the problem if you don't learn it".' 'Finally: Telling me to quit my job' How is this first statement any different than what anyone else who is passionate about what they do is saying about who knows what? And probably you have never been told exactly what you wrote up there. As far as telling you to quit your job, here goes: Craig says 'Quit your job!'. Are you gonna do it? I hope not. Because I sure the hell am not gonna do anything you tell me. Man I just wanna see another 400 kindred soul be happy. The problem as I see it, is you want to have a pity party, and most of the clicque that run to that scene are gone, and thats okay. Because most of the people who visit this site come here for encouragement and reinforcement of the choices they make in their chosen career path, however winding and backtracking that path may be. This site isn't called 'A Little bit Mid Range Computing (although we much prefer MS)'. You on the other hand are spewing a torrent of negativisms about the tools that most of us make our living off of and want to hear good things about it, that's why I know I come hear. So responding to you is kinda fun. You really can't go to a MS site and bash the 400 intelligently because out there who cares, and vice versa here. We care about the 400, we will use MS where we need to, but most of us aren't going to all out Champion it. So, that leaves you with the Choice of picking something to Champion or picking something to pick on. One is popular here and other isn't as much. And you see sparring with you is quite therapudic, so we can test the outside waters with our inner most thoughts, and test our self validations. By the way, we don't use Websphere (WAS) were I work. But we do use WDSc, RPGsp, Imaging, old antique dinosaur code, old cloned code who does who knows what, Java when forced too, and MS. We have a Web on the 400 group, not a wish or a dream. But, we don't use Websphere(WAS). Rejoice in what you have. Or stay negative, and stay fun. Craig

[Guest.Visitor]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

Okay, Recruiter beats you to the question you had in mind. So you change careers because a lone single solitary recruiter has more jobs available in something else than what you are looking for or are trying to keep a pulse on, like probably most intelligent folks. Expand that to: A lone single solitary USER beats you to the question that you came to ask him about, what he thinks he needs to see so he can do what his manager wants him to do. So, no need to think any further about that, you just CODE it just like he tells you to. Kinda silly, I love it. Wasn't the title of this thread, something like 'It's the Developers Stupid?'. Who guarantees the platform's survival? WE DO STUPID, we are the Platform's users. The USERS we think about, are not the platform's users. We are, the Developers. The USERS are our Application's USERS, they use APPLICATIONS, not Platforms, we, the Developers use Platforms and OS, USERS use APPLICATIONS. Therefore Developers use Platforms and Users use their Applications, Therefore: NO Good modern Applications, USERS use something else. The real question is what are you doing about it? You can grow the Platform or you can shrink it. This is the choice, the choice is not Webshere, it is what are YOU doing about growing or shrinking the platform. What are you doing? (Now notice, I did not say you should quit, you will one day decide that all by your lonesome) I know what I am doing. Craig

[Guest.Visitor]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

If one can converse in business and accounting terms with finance hmmm. So I guess my business degree with major in accounting has something to do with how I survive against those butt kicking kids. I thought it was my diversity of skill sets However I have found that the key to success is the right work culture. At times of desperation, I have taken any job that came my way just to put food on the table. However I was successful only in those shop that had a work cultural that suited me. Our friend Ralph says he gives Customers whatever they want i.e. if they want legacy, he gives them legacy. I can not. In all the shops that I was successful, I found senior management who would hate guys who do exactly what was told. They liked giving a "vision" and expected the guy to work out the details. When the kids have to workout details, they fail in the area of business knowledge. In the end, you are right! "It is the business knowledge stupid" (addressing those kids, not you)

[Guest.Visitor]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

Lost amid the huffing and the hubris is TAGrove's main point, which I think is valid: Most AS400 shops are not in the software development business. As IT staff, we provide a service that helps these companies do their real jobs: Insurance, healthcare, shipping and receiving, banking, etc., and they are using purchased application packages. These companies are only interested in pursuing technology as far as it helps them pursue their original lines of business. Most programmers I know would leap at the opportunity to learn new, cutting-edge languages and techniques, but their employers either forbid it or can't find the funding for it. Sure, as individuals, we have the right (some would say obligation) to pursue greener pastures elsewhere. But that doesn't explain the stagnancy of the platform. Until the vendors start supplying more "modern" technology, what motivation is there for AS400 customers to chase the latest gee-whiz language? If you have the juice to so greatly influence the technology decisions of your company, more power to you. But for most of us, we are hamstrung by the fiscal realities of our companies. And watch who you're calling "lazy".

[T.Grove]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

Craig: I'm not changing careers. I have a career as a programmer, not exclusively as an AS400 programmer (even though that platform is where I have spent my time programming). I am learning new programming methodologies, platforms, and languages to remain competetive and employable. I have heard from more than one recruiter to get off the As400, and that there isn't work out there for it, by the way. I personally think that there will be a huge resurgance in jobs available for the AS400 in 5-10 years as the more senior programmers retire, and there's no junior/entry level people to hire. This is the fault of IBM for not pushing partnership with universities, like it did in the past, but have started doing again in recent years. Sadly when these senior people retire, their retirement will also mean the retirement of the AS400 from some shops, as there will be no one able to maintain or modify code there, and they will be hard pressed to find a replacement. Your statement: Who guarantees the platform's survival? WE DO STUPID, we are the Platform's users is dead wrong (and it sounds like you are directly calling me stupid, BTW). WE are not the users, our employers and their other employees are. WE are the developers of code on the platform. We implement the business rules and processes of the company we are employed by. PERIOD. We as developes do not tell CIO level executives which systems to buy or keep. That is THIER decision. We can suggest, but ultimately we do NOT have the power to force adoption or retention of any technology. Dave Hayes understood my point exactly as I was trying to make it: Most AS400 shops are not in the software development business. As IT staff, we provide a service that helps these companies do their real jobs: Insurance, healthcare, shipping and receiving, banking, etc., and they are using purchased application packages. These companies are only interested in pursuing technology as far as it helps them pursue their original lines of business. It's NOT the developers. It's the Vendors, and Managers, and people making the strategic technology purchasing decisions that will either kill or save this platform. We as developers can influence decisions, but rarely do we get the power to MAKE the decisions. We, as Dave put it best, perform a service to our employers.

[T.Grove]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

Craig: The problem as I see it, is you want to have a pity party Nope. I want to stress the point that it's NOT the developers fault the AS400 platform is declining. You on the other hand are spewing a torrent of negativisms about the tools that most of us make our living off of and want to hear good things about it. I'm not spewing negativism about the tool, but about IBM's marketing of that tool. Also, I am AGAIN going to say: anything negative that I'm spewing is completely directed at the thought of DEVELOPERS being responsible for the decline in the AS400. If you will also notice: I never attacked you personally, your decisions of which tool to use or promote, or the As400 platform. I DID point out the flaw in your reasoning that developers drive the adoption of the machine and technologies, and in IBM's marketing of the tool and platform. I think healthy debate is something that should be encouraged. And finally (you knew there'd be a finally): I realize that this is NOT a Microsoft site, but a Midrange site. I also realize that in many instances, people here still bleed Big Blue. My biggest point is this: don't be so closely tied to a platform that when the platform suffers you do. Learn new skills to stay competetive and marketable. Maybe, just maybe, it'll have to be something from the despised Microsoft.

[Guest.Visitor]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

Dave, I totally agree, hubris & huffing, how appropos! TaGrove, at last someone gets your point. What I cannot understand is why it took so many posts, seems some here like to be deliberately obtuse ... ta! don

[Guest.Visitor]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

I think one can work their butt off and not contribute to things going forward. A major belief, that I have, is that as developers, and that is how I am employed, we have to create the sizzle or no one buys the steak. If you work at a canned software installation where nothing can be changed, then you are not employed as a developer. Not a slight, just the way it is. Then it is up to the developers at the software houses to create the sizzle. My befief for a long time is that MS has the place they have because so many developers whether employed on tinkering in their garages or kitchen tables, have created a lot of sizzle that can't be ignored. We can do a great deal more than we do. You said: Most programmers I know would leap at the opportunity to learn new, cutting-edge languages and techniques, but their employers either forbid it or can't find the funding for it. I agree, this is true. I haven't learned what I know at my employer's place or on his nickel, that I contend is why I have a career as a developer working at places that employ developers on home grown code bases, utilizing cutting edge tools. Craig

[Guest.Visitor]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

I don't think you're stupid. I was making the same play as the originator of this thread on slick willies song. I do think we have a difference of opinion, and the will to talk about it. If enough developers don't create enough sizzle, then the Vendors, Software Houses, Managers and whoever buys these things, have to go elsewhere. The sizzle doesn't grow on trees. It can hardly be bought. It grows in hearts first and then minds and then manifests itself in beautiful code, even MS code, and then someone buys it. Without the code being written then nothing happens with the best of hardware. If your employer won't allow anything but the canned software, okay, I understand that. If your company isn't an isolated island, then it has to communicate with other companies in many ways. Is your company buying any software to accomplish any of that? Then anticipate what the next and the next 10th thing will be and write it on your kitchen table using a timeshare with all the latest tools and then sell it to your employer, and 100 other employers and advance the status the dinosaur 400 with the business experience and the experience on the 400 that you undoubtably have. If your company won't push the envelope, or anyone else's company won't for that matter, then that company is not going to grow the platform, so my original thoughts again: one either does something to grow the platform or they don't. I think it lies with developers, others don't. Craig

[T.Grove]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

Craig, No offense taken, then (since you were paraphrasing the topic). I do agree that the platform does need to grow. My frustration with IBM on this point knows no bounds. Marketing to new clients is non-existant. When there WAS marketing, it wa quirky and did not even mention the machine. IBM's idea of marketing is to sell machines to aleady existing customers, and empower the ISV's to sell their machines for them to new customers. The problem with this is that ISV's are already in the market segment that HAS the machine. Intel and Microsoft market to everyone through print media, radio, television, you name it, they are everywhere. The second gripe that I have with IBM's marketing is to us, the developers. There is just no comparison between the ways that you can learn Microsoft programming languages and tools versus IBM's languages and tools. One is everywhere to be found, and one is not. There are no new programmers being created for the AS400/iSeries/i5 platform (or so few as to be statistically insignificant). The name changing has not helped, either. The fact that there are virtually no college or university classes for IBM AS400 languages shows you the true picture of how the machine is going to be adopted by the generation coming out of college (or for that matter, those that have in the past 10-15 years). So, we have an environment where: 1. Most shops ar running packages that are green screen. (In some applications, green screen really IS best. I worked for a trucking company that had a daily volume of 5000+ freight bills. They went so far as to count keystrokes on the screen, so that the data entry people wouldn't have to type 3 extra strokes per bill. Those 3 keystrokes were the equivelant of 100 bills per shift. Having that peoson remove their hands from a keyboard to click a mouse would be incredibly horrible for their throughput.) 2. The machine is viewed as legacy by people who do not know it's true potential. I can try to change their minds, but MS/Intel have everyone convinced that if it ain't GUI, it ain't worth keeping in the data center. (see my comment about universities above) 3. Developers on the platform are maintaining and modifying the packages that they work on, and any new development must conform to the package when it comes to presentation to the user (if the package is green screen, the new stuff needs to be green screen). 4. Developers are aging and will be retiring soon. This is going to be the biggest test of whether the platform survives. Sadly, I believe that many CIO's will say: "Well, Jim's gone. Let's move all his old applications to a newer windows/web based system. That way we can get rid of that old clunker with its green screen non-friendly interface. Besides it's SO expensive, and the maintenance fees are really high." 5. Developers just cannot create enough "sizzle" when IBM has turned the grill off, and disconnected the gas. We can evangelize all we want, but IBM doesn't even seem to care that the platform is declining. (OS/400 the OS/2 of the new millenia) 6. Package vendors are not creating GUI versions of their products, because there's no incentive to do so for them. They are still selling green-screen versions, getting maintenance fees, and "why fix it if it ain't broken" is the attitude. I don't know the solution. I have a few clues, though: 1. Marketing - add NEW customers, advertise to those not already using the machine 2. Training - IBM classes are good, timeshares are good. University and college classes are a must. FYI: I'm on the advisory committee for my local community college. It does have curriculum for teaching AS400 RPG programming. I push AS400 programming classes to be offered all the time. Their response: "We'd offer those classes if we had enough people express interest." So, the classes never happen. (I AM evangelizing, and trying to create new programmers.) Maybe if we developers all decided to go to our local colleges and universities and ask to take classes, they'd be offered and a buzz would start....... Personally, I'm not holding my breath. I WOULD like to know if there any institutions near the readers of this, who have classes being offered in AS400 programming and technology. Also, how they are being attended. Bottom line: IBM needs to step up to the plate a lot more than we developers do.....

[Guest.Visitor]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

Our local 2 year tech school teaches the iseries, RPG, etc. You can get an associate degree in programming. The courses include the iseries and RPG and COBOL. You can also earn a certificate in midrange programming which is iseries and RPG/COBOL. A certificate requires fewer courses than a degree program. Here's a link to the I.T. courses: http://www.fvtc.edu/public/academics...a.aspx?area=10 Tom.

[Guest.Visitor]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

I work in a shop with canned software. For that matter I always worked in a shop with canned software, and yes I was never allowed to modify the software unless I was in the software shop that made the software itself. This does not stop me from being creative. I can not modify the database but I can always create an "extention file". i.e. if I need to add email address to a customer database and the legacy database does not have it, I will create another file that has customer number and email address. Similarly, if the file maintenance program does not allow mass update to a file, I will write a "tool" that will be a rewrite of the original program except it makes call to same validation APIs of the original program. In the worst case, I will change a CL to add a step i.e. if the CL is calling three report print programs, I will add a fourth call to a fourth report program. (The user will delete the obsolete report's spool file without printing it). Working in a legacy shop is no excuse for you to rot yourself.

[T.Grove]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

Hassan, I agree that you can work around limitations to packages. I've done all of the things you have done in working with canned software: Extension files, Re-Written maintenance programs, Calling home-grown routines, etc. The particular package that I work with is still primarily RPT's with some RPGLE sprinkled in. For my new stuff, I write RPGLE, or SQLRPGLE (for reports and some home-grown screens). I also use Free format, and BIF's. I even use some API's (even though I'm not as familiar and as comfortable with them). I don't believe that I am rotting by working on a canned package, and I am using innovative techniques to provide my employer with the software that they need. My point to this discussion was that using web technology with a canned package is pretty much a no-no for most of us. And having that restriction painted as the reason that the As400 is declining, AND it being our fault for living with that restriction and not demanding change from our employers, was just a little too much for me to take and not respond to.

[R.Daugherty]

It's the DEVELOPERS, stupid!

I agree that you're using good techniques to add value to the company's investment in its ERP. What I don't agree with is that any portion of the existing or exhanced programs displayed to a web page is better. There's a reason to use web pages, and that isn't one of them. Something that would be appropriate and of value to the company would be a drill down data inquiry and analysis module via browser. The company may have already invested in this and is not needed, but if not, starting out a BI type module via browser simply and without a lot of cost could provide a beneficial foundation for inhouse analysis. rd