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**J.Pluta** · 01-12-2001, 07:24 AM

Musicality in the Programming Field

They both also require a pretty good memory. Just plain old-fashioned memory of the sort that "I wanted to do this, and it required that". Anyway, the best natural programmer I've ever met in my life was a music major - she's an accomplished singer and at the same time the only person who was able to build a client/server application from an existing maintenance program on her own.

**Guest.Visitor** · 01-12-2001, 07:41 AM

Musicality in the Programming Field

If I ever quit flunking retirement 101, I think I'll try to run this whole thing to ground... It's always intrigued me. The thing I remember was the lady at mbi who was doing the study -- trying to find a test to find programmers -- described her job as 'Trying to find a test that will show that accountants make good programmers ' . Because no one believed her results I guess the thing died; but I seem to remember running across an article about it; maybe ACM or some IEEE rag ???? . Occasionally over the years I have been hired to interview prospects for projects; I always ask about Music but never have seen any trends. Another point: to the extent that programming involves data design, success in programming means success in data design because if the data are right programming should be trivial; I am totally mystified as to the relation between data design concepts and music ability. bobh

**J.Pluta** · 01-12-2001, 08:03 AM

Musicality in the Programming Field

I am totally mystified as to the relation between data design concepts and music ability. Yet to me they are intrinsically the same thing: abstract collations of data with meaningful relationships. Designing a record is like noodling a phrase; designing an object like writing a melody; designing a database like composing a symphony. The interrelationships between objects play like the interrelationships between parts of a song. There is a mathematical bent to the whole thing as well; both music and objects are pretty easily reduced to numbers. There are other related pursuits that seem to have a much lower correlation (or even an anti-correlation). For example, there aren't a whole lot of programmers who can actually write prose, much less poetry. The two talents seem to draw on diametrically opposing skills. And yet one might think that poetry and music were related skills. I submit that they are not: music is mathematical in nature, while poetry is lingual. And I could go rambling off here as well, but it's Friday and things are afoot... Joe

**Guest.Visitor** · 01-12-2001, 08:22 AM

Musicality in the Programming Field

WHAT!!??!! Friday already!!??!! Geez, how much time DO I spend in this forum, anyway!?

**Guest.Visitor** · 01-12-2001, 08:35 AM

Musicality in the Programming Field

Well, Joe, I'm glad you cleared up my mystification and reminded me it is Friday. bobh

**Guest.Visitor** · 01-12-2001, 09:41 AM

Musicality in the Programming Field

For example, there aren't a whole lot of programmers who can actually write prose, much less poetry. The two talents seem to draw on diametrically opposing skills. And yet one might think that poetry and music were related skills. I submit that they are not: music is mathematical in nature, while poetry is lingual.

Of course there are many� distinctions between programming and other creative work.� The tools are different.� The composition is different.� The results are usually different.� But, one can also point out parallels between programming and perhaps any creative process, including writing poetry.

In music composition the tools are voices and instruments that produce sound.� The composition involves variation of notes, meter, pattern, rhythm, timing, and combinations.� The results are mood, stirred emotions, provoked imagination.

In poetry the tools are words.� Like music, the composition involves patterns, rhythm, timing, and combinations.� While instruments produce different sounds than the spoken word, the resulting thoughts and feelings are similar.� The combination of music and lyric produce a more� profound effect.

While I've never done it, I can imagine writing programs that produce music and lyrics.� Of course you'd need the right hardware, language, and database designed for the purpose.� Economy and clarity of expression are two parallels one might draw between programming and poetry.� The thought process required to take any number of inputs and produce a desired output is another parallel.

**Guest.Visitor** · 01-12-2001, 09:46 AM

Musicality in the Programming Field

Also, like in programming, creativity within a particular art form requires the discpline to master the tools of the form. Be it a musical instrument, paints & brushes, woodworking tools, or a programming language.

**Guest.Visitor** · 01-12-2001, 10:04 AM

Musicality in the Programming Field

Yes, and that might explain the reason for programmers not writing poetry, or painting, or developing a musical talent, or pursuing photography. Although programmers might be able to become good at it, the time commitment for the discipline would be a factor.

**David Abramowitz** · 01-12-2001, 10:32 AM

Musicality in the Programming Field

Jim Hanak wrote: the ability to express it within a pretty rigidly defined structure(harmony, orchestral arranging, etc versus a programming language, machine architecture, etc.) Make sense? Yes it does, but these abilities may be found in wide variety of other disciplines. I just don't see a positive correlation. You are right on the money about "tiny money". Before I changed careers I was living in Title 8 subsidised housing. Dave

**Guest.Visitor** · 01-12-2001, 01:36 PM

Musicality in the Programming Field

I don't know how good I would be today, but in elementary school thru highschool, I played classical violin and also played trumpet. Went back and forth from 1st to 2nd chair violin the whole time I played. Was usually about 10th, 11th or 12th out of 15 trumpeters. I never correlated either with my programming ability. -bret

**Guest.Visitor** · 01-12-2001, 01:42 PM

Musicality in the Programming Field

Hmm, Joe, you're suggesting a correlation based on music being basically mathematical. I propose an alternate theory: if there is a correlation, it's because programming is sometimes approached artistically. A personal example: I used to get a bang out of writing counterpoint, when it was both elegant and sounded good. I get the exact same bang from writing a program, when it's both elegant and it works. ("Elegant" as I perceive them.) I put myself through computer science at university playing as an extra in the Edmonton Symphony (and some teaching). I once had a math course that ended at 9:50 am, just time enough for me to race over to the rehearsal hall in time for 10 am symphony rehearsals (very unprofessional! you should get to rehearsals half an hour before they start). I could actually feel something in my brain switching over from "mathematics" mode to "music" mode (and not just 0-origin to 1-origin counting, although that was sometimes a problem :-). I don't have the same feeling of a switch between music and programming. This is just unsubstantiated theorizing though - a sample size of one is not quite big enough to draw conclusions. Barbara

**Guest.Visitor** · 01-12-2001, 01:48 PM

Musicality in the Programming Field

Barbara, We discussed this in music class a few times. The mathematical equations jump out at you when you work with octaves. Ironically, if you halve the length of the piano string, xylophone bar etc, you get the next lower octave. I don't remember all of it, but a simple test is to take a half full (for you optimists) glass of water and a quarter full glass and a full glass. Strike them (gently) and notice the differences in sound. Obviously if you use a wine glass and a beer mug for comarison, your tones will be different as will the octave, but it's a simple test that makes a bit of fun. -bret

**nycsusan@hotmail.com** · 01-12-2001, 01:53 PM

Musicality in the Programming Field

Barbara wrote: I propose an alternate theory: if there is a correlation, it's because programming is sometimes approached artistically. Now THIS is a theory that I can buy into! I have said for years that true problem solving IS creative, and you can equate creativity with being artistic. This applies not just to the musically inclined, but visually creative arts as well. Program and application design ARE problem soloving afterall, and that takes some creative thinking. Brainstorming is a creative process, and most of us do a LOT of it. Why do so many of us like to have doucmentation in the form of flowcharts in addition to lengthy paragraphs of words? Because the visual representation "says" a lot, and it registers very quickly, that's why! I would like to add to your proposal - I believe that visual artists (designers who create graphics) should be included too.

**Guest.Visitor** · 01-12-2001, 01:57 PM

Musicality in the Programming Field

Bret, I know there are mathematical relationships in many aspects of music, I just don't think that they are particularly relevant to musicians. It's cool to touch the half-way point on a string and get a harmonic an octave above the string, and to touch either quarter-way point and get the a harmonic at the next octave. Just like it's cool to put your bow under the strings and play a scale in double-octaves (you can win bets using this - no believes it's possible to play double-octave scales). But when you're actually playing, you don't think about this or care about this, and if you don't know this relationship at all, it makes no difference to your playing. Barbara

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