It's not about competition, folks...

[R.Daugherty]

It's not about competition, folks...

That was a pretty good discussion on that forum. Thanks for the link. The two day delay if an American call center is used is explained by the CEO as because India is 12 hours off. The explanation is interesting. He says if the call is taken in India, America works on it that day, then India that night. But if American call center takes it, America works on it that day and then it sits overnight, then they work on it next day, resulting two day delay. So back office processing is mixed in with call center option. It is an interesting "all American" or "international, but call center is always India choice". Call center could always be American and overnight backoffice processing performed in India, but then that would always be chosen and e-Loan wouldn't save the labor costs,so of course they won't offer that. As for tarriffs protecting IT jobs, as far as my post goes the tarriffs I propose are against all imported products, including telecommunications services and goods from American subsidiaries, based on the amount of trade imbalance. If a country buys as much as we sell to them, there is no tarriff. That is trade, after all, is it not? Trade is fine. Exporting creates jobs. Without exporting though there is not enough trade, just importing instead of importing and exporting at comparable levels. China has a $100 billion trade deficit and would not buy an American product they could rip off to save Mao Tse-Tung's memory. A 20% tarriff, their share of our trade deficit, can be used by the government to buy more expensive American made goods instead of importing it. If China and India buy as much as they sell, then we're trading, there are no tarriffs, and God bless them. rd

[dmjae2004@yahoo.com]

It's not about competition, folks...

So should Joe be boycotting Best Buy or Accenture and EDS ? The articles do make reference to that most of the existing Best Buy staff would/did transfer. A number of posts in this tread suggest the introduction of Government Tarrifs is required to "protect" the local IT industry. If the government did introduce the tarrifs how do we expect the local IT industry to respond ? In other industries where these tariff protections exsit the industry has also needed to respond with improvements. P.S. It seems E-Loan have come up with a reasonable approach Offshore Opt In or Out

It's not about competition, folks...

Thanks for the link! Circuit City is on the list of offshore outsourcers. HH Gregg is not. Chris

It's not about competition, folks...

A google search of "Accenture India" found some interesting links. Did you know they are doubling their IT work force in India? Click here. Chris

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

It's not about competition, folks...

Dave400 said, "... Checking other sources it is likely the outsourcer will be Accenture and previous outsourcing of the help desk was EDS. ..." Both Accenture and EDS (a.k.a. Electronic Data Systems) are known to send jobs offshore. Check the Exporting America list: http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/lou.dobbs.tonight/

[dmjae2004@yahoo.com]

It's not about competition, folks...

They plan to put nearly 1000 American IT workers out of work, in all likelihood shipping their jobs to India. As you can see, this is not about a corporation "struggling to survive" or anything like it. It is about greedy corporate owners squeezing every last penny of profit possible at the expense of American workers. Perhaps you are reading a lot into the article that was not there. Checking other sources it is likely the outsourcer will be Accenture and previous outsourcing of the help desk was EDS. Infoweek Computerworld According to these articles many of the people will transfer across as part of the outsourcing. It seems from the comments in this thread the concern is more on offshoring, than outsourcing.

It's not about competition, folks...

Interesting article... Entrepreneurs are born, but can they be taught? Brian

It's not about competition, folks...

Thomas M. Stockwell wrote: > I recently had an interesting exchange that typifies, in my mind, how > the outsourcing process will ultimately fail for companies. But this experience does NOT show the downfall of international outsourcing, this could have easily happened with a US collections company. Stories have abounded for decades about the ruthlessness of collection agencies and this one was no different. Bill

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

It's not about competition, folks...

kumargovindas said, "... Well, a good example is when Circuit City close its doors in my area, no other electronic store pick-up the slack. Now Gateway is closing too...." Perhaps no electronic store opened in your area because there is no "slack" to pick up. This is the scenario I, indeed a lot of us who oppose outsourcing, predicted. With middle class jobs leaving the country, there is less disposable income available for items like electronics. And people with jobs think twice about spending money on electronics, or entertainment, or travel, etc., when they realize that their job could go overseas next. This situation will get worse until there are comparable (salary-wise) alternatives for the workers displaced by outsourcing. Unemployed or underemployed people typically will not spend money at Circuit City or Best Buy or other non-essentials.

[David Abramowitz]

It's not about competition, folks...

Ralph Dougherty wrote: On being active about doing something about our loss of jobs, I don't think anyone has been more active than Dave all these years. Thank you Ralph. Dave

[R.Daugherty]

It's not about competition, folks...

Hi all. I got an MC email update and clicked into here. Been a long time. I was laid off last fall and all my complaints the past few years turned out to be depressingly true. I hate to be right all the time. For the moment I'm publishing a book unrelated to programming, so we'll see how long that keeps me going. Hopefully long enough for a job to be brought back onshore. Nice thread, I saw nearly everybody in it. My thoughts: I agree with almost everything everybody said, which is a major first. I had to give up trying to buy Made in USA several years ago. I literally couldn't find the tag anymore. When I asked for it, I was asked if I was with a union. It's just plain true that manufacturing jobs by the millions were lost and no one complained about low prices from stuff made elsewhere, although I complained to any sales clerks within earshot, usually none, that quality and service was apparently out of fashion. The new public awareness of our jobs crisis is only peripherally related to IT, actually probably only those in the IT profession and their loved ones are aware they are being affected as well. It's the continuing massive loss of manufacturing and now customer service jobs that has gotten the attention of the masses. Those 8.4 million unemployed are joined by everyone else scared their job is next. It's nationwide, and it even has people more worried than Iraq. That's literally scary. I'm a Democrat and strongly support Kerry, but the 10 million jobs and Bush's projection for this year of generating 3 million jobs are based on numerical requirements having absolutely nothing to do with reality. The exact number projected by Bush was enough to replace the jobs lost in his term and add a few hundred thousand. If the projection wasn't that high, then they would be projecting that Bush would be the first to lose jobs in a presidential term since the Depression. Whether he does or not, you certainly can't project it. Same with Kerry. With 8+ million unemployed and 100,000+ needed each month to keep up with population growth, so I keep readiing, 10 million is a convenient number that gives employment to all current unemployed and new entrants to the job market in his term. He has no more idea how many jobs will be created than I do of when I'll get my next job. Not to go off topic though, he does have an aggressive plan for developing national energy sources to replace importing some oil that is projected to create half a million jobs, so that's a good start on a number of fronts. On being active about doing something about our loss of jobs, I don't think anyone has been more active than Dave all these years. I was quite pleased to see that the efforts of many of you such as Dave and Susan and others on H1-B resulted in the quota reverting back to 64,000 despite the literal lies being told by greedy corporations and their shills. Lo and behold, I was amazed to start seeing RPG jobs advertised recently without the ubiqitous "locals only". Still no relocation, but there never was much in advertisements. But locals only was a killer. I was tempted at times, no I take that back, I did at times take up residence in parking lots behind Denny's to meet that requirement but those were tough times. Well, maybe these are tougher even. This is now the American worker against corporations who are looking for that boost to next quarters numbers by lowering labor costs. There is nothing in their calculus about the loss of their customers as they and other corporations lay off millions. When one does it, they think they've outsmarted everyone. When everyone does it, they've all outsmarted themselves. They better hope they get new Indian and Chinese customers because Americans won't have any money to buy anything. It's a boycott, but an involuntary boycott. Much more effective, unfortunately. Well, the theories are just that, theories. Greenspan and the free traders have no idea what they're doing. This is new territory, untrodden by economists who quite frankly never did know why anything did what it did. Ask ten economists a question and you'll get eleven answers. The free trade answer is it's good to make something for the cheapest cost, and if we don't someone else will. According to that logic everything will be done and made elsewhere, because there will always be cheaper elsewhere. Oh, but they can't innovate like we can, they say. That is a level of ignorant arrogance surpassed only by the Romans many centuries ago, and we know what happened to them. Ok, to solutions. I'll post a link to a post I made on my site and add something else here. In addition to all government purchases being of US made products competing on a balance of cost and percentage of domestic value, we have to drop out of NAFTA and WTO and impose a tarriff on imported products from countries based on the trade imbalance. For example, China's $100 billion trade deficit is 20% of our $500 billion annual trade deficit. A 20% tarriff would be imposed on imported goods made in China by anyone, including US corporations. Should the Chinese start buying enough US made goods to balance the trade then the tarriff disappears. Here's the link, and great to see you all again. Hope I can post something technical soon. A Call For Action On Unemployment http://www.justiceforchandra.com/for...pic.php?t=1397 rd

[cwscholbe@dstsystems.com]

It's not about competition, folks...

Kumar, We seem to have a very different understanding on an important point. It is NOT my responsibility to ensure that every business that opens a store stays in business forever. Yes, it is VERY unfortunate for the people who loose their jobs, but it happens (I've been there).... for all sorts of reasons. Remember folks...these are MY opinions

It's not about competition, folks...

Kumar, That's too bad about those businesses leaving your area. Are you in a small town? Maybe the area just couldn't support those businesses. Usually where ever you find a Circuit City, you find a Best Buy, HH Gregg, etc nearby. You can always shop online, you know, www.circuitcity.com, etc. Who knows, maybe the web sites are maintained companies in India! Chris PS: I found a great website on outsourcing, ITPAA, if anyone is interested

[ACT]

It's not about competition, folks...

Chris said: "Even if Best Buy did go bankrupt , that means their competition needs to hire people because their competition picked up a few billions dollars in extra business." Well, a good example is when Circuit City close its doors in my area, no other electronic store pick-up the slack. Now Gateway is closing too. Who will hire these people ? So your point is very way off. Joe said: "A boycott is also a time-honored American tradition, hailing back to the Boston Tea Party. You might try reading a little history before trying to tell me what is or isn't American." Oh yeah!!! Your talking of America, still a colony of the British Crown. And by the way BOSTON TEA PARTY is not a boycott, it's a revolt. In parallel to that event, it's just like going to BestBuy, pick-up any merchandise and throw it outside the garbage can( instead at the Boston harbor). But, we're talking here of a free, modern and vibrant AMERICA Joe were the rule of law should be uphold.

It's not about competition, folks...

Now there's an example of innovation at work! That guy's gonna be rich. :-) Wish I'da thoughta that. Brian